Debian Bug report logs - #14366
terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>

To: submit@bugs.debian.org

Subject: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:45:43 +0000 (GMT)

Package: ncurses-base
Version: 1.9.9g-5

The terminfo entry for xterm is broken. It includes colours and things,
which although in recent debian xterms, are not included in the majority
of xterms out there in the world.

This causes problems when users of any other system telnet in.

Can we have a genuine xterm terminfo entry back, and perhaps an
"xterm-color" one with colour included? In other words, can we go back to
the nice non-broken behaviour we used to have?

Message #10 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net>

To: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>, 14366@bugs.debian.org, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:33:44 -0700

Mark Baker wrote:

> Package: ncurses-base
> Version: 1.9.9g-5
>
> The terminfo entry for xterm is broken. It includes colours and things,
> which although in recent debian xterms, are not included in the majority
> of xterms out there in the world.
>
> This causes problems when users of any other system telnet in.
>
> Can we have a genuine xterm terminfo entry back, and perhaps an
> "xterm-color" one with colour included? In other words, can we go back to
> the nice non-broken behaviour we used to have?

*sigh* Here we go again.

Folks, I throw up my hands.  I honestly don't know what to do about this
anymore.  The changes that Mark is complaining about came from _upstream_.
The xterm entry was taken directly from the XFree86 3.3 distribution.  We're
eventually going to _have_ to move to it, and now seems like a good time.

I don't want to change it back.  It feels like a cowardly retreat to me.  If
it causes problems, they should be solved, not retreated from.  Does it
conflict with your backspace/delete handling?  Then we should fix programs
which make stupid assumptions about ^? being a synonym for ^H on linux. I
realize that older systems with older xterms are having problems, but that's
what "xterm-old" is for.   Is it really such a burden to use it?

If the consensus of the developers is to retreat, then I'll back out all the
upstream terminfo changes, and we'll be back to the old "non-broken"
behavior.  Speaking for myself, I really like the new xterm, and find it to
be considerably less broken than the old one.  But it seems that nobody else
agrees.

--Galen

Message #15 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: mbaker@iee.org (Mark Baker)

To: 14366@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:53:51 +0000

In article <m2n.s.1997110404550815424@chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
	Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net> writes:

> Folks, I throw up my hands.  I honestly don't know what to do about this
> anymore.  The changes that Mark is complaining about came from _upstream_.
> The xterm entry was taken directly from the XFree86 3.3 distribution.  We're
> eventually going to _have_ to move to it, and now seems like a good time.

No we're not. At least, not until every old xterm is gone from the world.

> I don't want to change it back.  It feels like a cowardly retreat to me.  If
> it causes problems, they should be solved,

However, those problems are in solaris, HP-UX, Digital Unix etc. Should we
persuade them to change (and it's not a bug in them, just a slightly older
release of X) or should we change, since we're currently the odd ones out.

> not retreated from.  Does it conflict with your backspace/delete handling? 
> Then we should fix programs which make stupid assumptions about ^? being a
> synonym for ^H on linux.

No it's nothing to do with backspace and delete.

It's to do with things like lynx not having any kind of highlighting, pine
not turning off inverse... fairly serious display programs.

> I realize that older systems with older xterms are having problems, but
> that's what "xterm-old" is for.  Is it really such a burden to use it?

No, but it's a completely un-necessary burden.

> behavior.  Speaking for myself, I really like the new xterm, and find it to
> be considerably less broken than the old one.

I don't have a problem with the new xterm, only with it's terminfo entry.
The old one (with a few minor additions, as the old one omitted the keyboard
configuration for some reason) was fine, and displays perfectly on both old
and new xterms, but without the colour.

What I suggest is this. We compile our xterm so it sets TERM to
"xterm-color", and install the new terminfo entry as that. Users of debian
systems will get the colour, as they do now, and users telnetting in from
other systems will have TERM set to xterm, and this too will do the right
thing.

The only problem with this is when users of debian systems telnet out, in
that the systems they connect to won't have xterm-color, but that's not a
problem as they can easily "export TERM=xterm". What's more, it shouldn't be
too hard to mail a terminfo entry to the sysadmin of the systems you telnet
into and ask them to add it for you, whereas upgrading X on some wierd
commercial unix is something they would rightly run away from.
.

Message #20 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Scott Ellis <storm@gate.net>

To: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>, 14366@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:31:02 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mark Baker wrote:

> The only problem with this is when users of debian systems telnet out, in
> that the systems they connect to won't have xterm-color, but that's not a
> problem as they can easily "export TERM=xterm". What's more, it shouldn't be
> too hard to mail a terminfo entry to the sysadmin of the systems you telnet
> into and ask them to add it for you, whereas upgrading X on some wierd
> commercial unix is something they would rightly run away from.

How different is this from "export TERM=xterm-old" for connecting to older
systems?

Another idea, add a program to run to switch between the old and new xterm
termcap files, so people who want it one way can have it, and people who
want it a different way can have it that way too.

-- 
Scott K. Ellis <storm@gate.net>                 http://www.gate.net/~storm/

Message #25 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net>

To: Scott Ellis <storm@gate.net>, 14366@bugs.debian.org

Cc: Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>, debian-devel@lists.debian.org, "Mark W. Eichin" <eichin@kitten.gen.ma.us>

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:17:01 -0700

Scott Ellis wrote:

> Another idea, add a program to run to switch between the old and new xterm
> termcap files, so people who want it one way can have it, and people who
> want it a different way can have it that way too.

I veto that idea on grounds of over-complexity.

Okay, how's this for a compromise.  I redesign ncurses-base so it includes two
xterm entries.  One is "xterm", which is what's currently "xterm-old" in
ncurses-term.  The other is "xterm-debian", which is the new one.  I ask the
debian X maintainer to hack xterm so it defaults to TERM=xterm-debian, perhaps
only when running a local shell.  (M.E.:  Is this possible?)

I think this should be acceptable to everyone.  Now all I have to do is come up
with a working rxvt entry, and we're set.  :-P

--Galen

Message #30 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: eichin@kitten.gen.ma.us (Mark W. Eichin)

To: Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net>

Cc: Scott Ellis <storm@gate.net>, 14366@bugs.debian.org, Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>, debian-devel@lists.debian.org, "Mark W. Eichin" <eichin@kitten.gen.ma.us>

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: 04 Nov 1997 16:09:17 -0500

> I veto that idea on grounds of over-complexity.

I agree.

> xterm entries.  One is "xterm", which is what's currently "xterm-old" in
> ncurses-term.  The other is "xterm-debian", which is the new one.  I ask the

Errr, I think that's bad.  It ends up making debian *more* distinct,
with no real value.

I think this is just an education issue -- I didn't even *know* about
xterm-old until I saw this thread, and it solved the problems I was
having from other systems (so did set term=vt100, but xterm-old is
correct :-)  After all, one *wants* the new xterm entry when coming
from any Xfree86 3.3 or X11R6.3 or later system, which will eventually
be most of them.

Maybe there's a helper script we could write that would make it easier
for people who are having problems (I'll note that I haven't been
getting any bug reports about this...)

>debian X maintainer to hack xterm so it defaults to TERM=xterm-debian, perhaps
>only when running a local shell.  (M.E.:  Is this possible?)

mm, you could mean "when DISPLAY is :0" or "when there is no -e
command argument"; either hack is possible, but I don't think either
is useful.  (I personally tend to put up xterm's automatically and
then run rlogin or telnet later -- and in that case, I want a TERM
entry that will work on the remote system... or at least I want it to
be consistent, so I'm not surprised when I *do* add an xterm -e to a
menu somewhere.)

In summary, I don't think we actually have a *bug* right now -- just a
user-education issue.  I don't think "dumbing down" the xterm entry is
advisable, keeping the older entry explicitly as a -old entry makes
sense... 

Message #35 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: mbaker@iee.org (Mark Baker)

To: 14366@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:09:04 +0000

In article <m2n.s.199711042114105899@chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
	Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net> writes:

> Okay, how's this for a compromise.  I redesign ncurses-base so it includes two
> xterm entries.  One is "xterm", which is what's currently "xterm-old" in
> ncurses-term.  The other is "xterm-debian", which is the new one.  I ask the
> debian X maintainer to hack xterm so it defaults to TERM=xterm-debian, perhaps
> only when running a local shell.  (M.E.:  Is this possible?)

Apart from the "only when running a local shell" bit (probably not possible)
that's what I suggested. "xterm-color" would be better than "xterm-debian"
since the same xterm is on other systems as well as debian ones.
.

Message #40 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net>

To: "Mark W. Eichin" <eichin@kitten.gen.ma.us>

Cc: Scott Ellis <storm@gate.net>, 14366@bugs.debian.org, Mark Baker <mbaker@iee.org>, debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:30:05 -0700

Mark W. Eichin wrote:

> I think this is just an education issue -- I didn't even *know* about
> xterm-old until I saw this thread, and it solved the problems I was
> having from other systems (so did set term=vt100, but xterm-old is
> correct :-)  After all, one *wants* the new xterm entry when coming
> from any Xfree86 3.3 or X11R6.3 or later system, which will eventually
> be most of them.

[snip]

> In summary, I don't think we actually have a *bug* right now -- just a
> user-education issue.  I don't think "dumbing down" the xterm entry is
> advisable, keeping the older entry explicitly as a -old entry makes
> sense...

Bless you for saying so.  I thought I was alone here...

--Galen

Message #45 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Christian Schwarz <schwarz@monet.m.isar.de>

To: Galen Hazelwood <galenh@micron.net>

Cc: 14366@bugs.debian.org, Debian Development <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>, "Mark W. Eichin" <eichin@kitten.gen.ma.us>

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:13:15 +0100 (CET)

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Galen Hazelwood wrote:

[snip]
> Okay, how's this for a compromise.  I redesign ncurses-base so it includes two
> xterm entries.  One is "xterm", which is what's currently "xterm-old" in
> ncurses-term.  The other is "xterm-debian", which is the new one.  I ask the
> debian X maintainer to hack xterm so it defaults to TERM=xterm-debian, perhaps
> only when running a local shell.  (M.E.:  Is this possible?)

I don't like this solution. I'd vote for calling the _correct_ record 
(i.e. the one that describes _our_ xterm completely) "xterm". The others
should be called "xterm-old", "xterm-compat", or whatever.

IMHO, we should set "TERM=xterm" as default (if that's not already the
case). If someone logs into a Debian system from another OS, he/she can
easily set "TERM=xterm-old", whatever.


Thanks,

Chris

--                 Christian Schwarz
                    schwarz@monet.m.isar.de, schwarz@schwarz-online.com,
Don't know Perl?     schwarz@debian.org, schwarz@mathematik.tu-muenchen.de
      
Visit                  PGP-fp: 8F 61 EB 6D CF 23 CA D7  34 05 14 5C C8 DC 22 BA
http://www.perl.com     http://fatman.mathematik.tu-muenchen.de/~schwarz/

Message #50 received at 14366@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):

From: mbaker@iee.org (Mark Baker)

To: 14366@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Re: Bug#14366: terminfo entry for "xterm" is broken

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:00:19 +0000

In article <m2n.s.1997110716384820494@chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
	Christian Schwarz <schwarz@monet.m.isar.de> writes:

> I don't like this solution. I'd vote for calling the _correct_ record 
> (i.e. the one that describes _our_ xterm completely) "xterm". The others
> should be called "xterm-old", "xterm-compat", or whatever.
> 
> IMHO, we should set "TERM=xterm" as default (if that's not already the
> case). If someone logs into a Debian system from another OS, he/she can
> easily set "TERM=xterm-old", whatever.

The whole point of termcap and terminfo is that they should be unique; a
terminfo name should correspond to one type of terminal everywhere. It
shouldn't be one type of terminal on some systems and an entirely different
one on others.

Your solution requires me to set TERM every time I log in here from outside.
Although I can put it in my .profile, that would stop me getting colours the
rest of the time.

The way I suggested, this is not necessary. Yes, it is necessary to set TERM
when logging onto a system that doesn't understand xterm-color, but that's
easy to work around, either by a simple

	if [ $TERM == xterm-color ]; then
		export TERM=xterm
	fi

in the .profile, or just by asking the sysadmin whether he'll install an
xterm-color entry for you.
.

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