Re: [debian-knoppix] Knoppix as Debian installer (was: Why so much swap with knx-install?)
On January 26, 2003 07:26 am, Klaus Knopper wrote:
> > Ask Klaus if Knoppix is meant as an installer for Debian.
>
> Answer: Knoppix (the mainstream version that you can download from the
> mirrors) is not designed to be an installer for Debian. ;-)
>
> There are other versions, however, that are specifically designed to
> install and customize a master image of a previously created Debian
> installation with no interaction. Paid work for customers, who
> decide on their own if they want to release it publically or not.
I guess the important word here is "customize". Otherwise, it's quite trivial.
> But in fact, Christain's script does a pretty good job, and many people
> find it useful for an initial install of a current Debian snapshot.
I certain am amongst those people. My only point is that the few lines of
instructions to use knx-hdinstall should be on Christian's site and that you
make a link to Christian's site so that people do not use outdated
instructions all over the net.
For now, the problem seems trivial, It might end up being much more
complicated soon.
> The supplied /etc/apt/sources.list should contain everything that's needed
> for updates and additional installs. The knx-hdinstall script needs a
> lot of enhancement though, in my opinion, before you could really call
> it a Debian installer. Package selection, a better partitioning GUI,
> a better way to ask for user passwords, for example.
For "package selection", see my answer to Christian.
"A better partitioning GUI" ? Dunno. If I remember well, I succeeded in
creating / , /swap and /home partitions. Would anything have prevented me
from creating a /var partition? Certainly not after installation, anyway. So
the newbie has all he wants, the expert can add the partitions he needs
later. Fine!
"a better way to ask for user passwords" ? I don't really remember how I was
asked. Even if the script didn't ask, 1 line about "adduser" could be added
in the knx-hdinstall instructions . We're not making a distro for the blind,
are we?
> > I tried the 31st of
> > October version and there were still problems that prevented me to use
> > Knoppix as my "on-disk" distro. The main problem was with a rather
> > shrunken mtab.
>
> This should be solved now.
That was my only beef. Personnaly, I believe I'll be using knx-hdinstall 1 for
my next install.
Some people complain that the floppy and CDROM icons dont appear on the
desktop after using knx-hdinstall. I suppose you use Supermount with Knoppix
and it's not deemed safe enough for using on the HD?
Otherwise, I suppose it's something that should be worked on. Newbies
sometimes try to mount the floppy while they're in /mnt/floppy. Or they
forget to mount the floppy, copy to /mnt/floppy and "loose" their files when
the floppy is indeed mounted. Or they forget to umount and get weird results
when they insert another floppy and try to mount it. The horror stories are
endless.
If it's not possible to have supermount (or any other soft?) working safely, a
little education will be needed. I'm ready to write this kind of basic info.
> > I believe this problem has now been solved with the present version and
> > I'm looking forward to give it a try again when KDE 3.1 comes out.
>
> Whenever that will be. ;-)
> (I'm waiting for the sid packages with TTF support compiled with g++
> 3.2, and the kde-i18n translations for all supported languages).
Translations... yes. I used to be a translator, but if there's on thing I
wouldn't like to translate, it's instructions for Linux. Sometimes the
translation doesn't exist and when it does, people understand the english
word much better. I certainly wouldn't wait for that.
OTOH, if anybody can explain how I can get a CA keyboard at the prompt
(notice: a CA keyboard), I'm a taker.
> > Still, since hwdata is there for the taking, I don't understand why
> > Debian doesn't use it. (Klaus has never been ashamed of taking from
> > Debian and even Red Hat!)
>
> Why should I? It is free software and I have no political preference.
That's exactly my point: you shouldn't and nobody should. That's what open
source is all about, mainly if Linux is to conquer the world fast. By the
way, did you notice Bill Gates has sold about 4 billion dollars of shares,
from Feb 2001 to Nov 2002.
http://biz.yahoo.com/t/62/412.html
I've been checking this since mid 1999, and he's selling all the time.
I know he's investing in satellite systems using electromagnetic canons (I
suppose the endeavour in Los Alamos is mainly subsidized by the US
government, though), but he's selling a lot. Is uncle Bill feeling the heat?
I certainly would.
> > It wouldn't prevent sysadmins from using the Debian's script...
> > thought I doubt they would. If a real sysadmin should be able to install
> > any distro even without a script, in the real world, speed is often an
> > issue.
>
> The hardware detection of Knoppix is a little different to implement in
> a Debian installer CD, because it consists not only of the libkudzu
> detection library, but also of a C program (hwsetup) that loads the
> modules for all detected and supported cards automatically, several
> shellscripts that build the fstab and /etc/X11/XF86Config*, plus some
> scripts that are called on demand (hotplug-knoppix) when a new device is
> plugged in. Someone at our LinuxTag/FSF meeting today wanted to have a
> look at those scripts and may try to write an all-in-one C program that
> could maybe be used for installation purposes, but so far, the hardware
> detection is quite Knoppix-specific and primarily designed for a live
> system. I can well understand that some of the Debian team don't see a
> possibility to use the Knoppix HW detection for the Debian installer in
> its current form.
Still, don't you think it would be better than to start from scratch?
> > Note: I don't intend on pursuing this discussion. I've never succeeded in
> > having a Debian devotee agree that there is something less than perfect
> > about Debian. So all this is just IMHO. We'll see how things turn out.
>
> Exactly.
Errr... no. Not exactly at all, really. I just wrote that because I'm afraid
this discussion will lead nowhere. Some people work in a structure and just
can't imagine it could be otherwise or that a good discussion with all the
folks will suffice to change it.
From the moment I took a course called "gestion des entreprises" some 30 years
ago, I've given much attention to how companies, small and large, succeed to
change their structure and I've seldom seen this happening. Maybe IBM has
succeeded... maybe, but it's much harder for non-profit organisation with an
egalitarian structure.
In these organisations, people get their "pay" from the importance they feel
they have inside the structure. When you want to change the structure, you
are bound to create a climate of insecurity and hurt some people's feelings
and, most probably, your suggestions will be rejected(1). Though I'm not part
of the organisation, I believe that's the kind of wall Ben Collins has hit.
(1) This is also exactly why our school system here in Quebec hasn't changed
since it went from religious to secular administration.
Whenever a group of people get together for a project, some kind of
administration is needed. The GPL has created a good shell for Linux business
to go on, but another level is needed in order to manage people. Daniel
Robbins, CEO of Gentoo, has had quite a good reflection about this. (See his
articles on IBM's site. One is about why he decided to found Gentoo.)
If it wasn't that he thinks he's going to create a real international distro
while letting Dan Armak wave his little zionist flag (1)
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/gentoo/images/shots/desktop-danarmak.png
I would say he's doing pretty good. Maybe he's gathered too many developpers
at once in an non-orderly manner, but I know he thinks management.
(1) IMHO Tux should wave no national flag.
Most programmers don't. For them, management rings like something Microsoft,
IBM or HP need and they don't identify with these companies, They want to
have nothing to do with non-nerds, suits, as they call them. The resulting
organisation is very hard to manage.
Some people, like Gaël Duval, thought that he could buy a management by hiring
experts. But a management grows inside a company through everyday decisions.
Just as culture, in no way can it be bought. That's why we talk about a
company's culture.
Some people, like Patrick Volkerding, wanted to keep away from the turmoil and
built some kind of Ivory Tower. After 10 years, the Tower's air is beginning
to smell stuffy and, the way things are going, from a lack of new income --
not necessarily $ --, Slackware will vanish exactly the same way the
distribution it replaced have disappered.
Contrarily to Robbins, I'm not much of a preacher, but I have to agree that
there's something to be learned from religion. Jesus-Christ didn't have 900
devel... apostles. He had twelve, a group of people he could talk to and that
he choose at his own rhythm. I believe that's a very valid model for business
too.
You might not agree Klaus, but FOR SURE, you're the boss and you should give
some consideration at how Knoppix will be run. I understand you don't want to
be held responsible for projects you can't keep a close look upon. For
instance you often state that knx-hdinstall is not your project.
But, like it or not, until Debian developpers prove that they can devise a
better installation system than Knoppix's and with its programs and
installation scripts -- which, I'm afraid won't be tomorrow -- knx-hdinstall
is here to stay.
It's here to stay and will likely be more useful to Knoppix than its Live-CD
will ever will be to SuSE. Since I always work at home. I never thought I
would have any use for a Live-CD. I asked a friend to download it because
there was an installation script and, out of desperation, I thought I'd give
a try to this funny thing. I then discovered the many uses of a Live-CD:
* show some fearful friend how user-friendly Linux has becomed
* putting an end to a discussion with my ISP's support when they pretend I
have some corrupted files
* try some equipment to find out if it's Linux compatible (somebody I know at
a downtown store is presently giving it a try for this purpose)
* pick up part of a config file when my present OS, Slackware, refuses to work
* and, who knows, someday, pick up my email from a different location.
One thing is sure, I came to Knoppix because of knx-hdinstall and, while not
too many things in life are to my liking, knx-hdinstall in its present state
is. With a nice mtab file, it's enough to make me suggest the readers of the
Linux tutorial I'm now writing to use Knoppix. (Don't hold your breath for it
to come out. I'm afraid my physician will have to find a "pill" to make my
nights more peaceful before it comes to fruition.)
Another thing is sure, I'm not the only one in this situation. After I
suggested Knoppix as THE Linux distro on my provider's newsgroup about two
months ago, it seems some people have downloaded Knoppix. Now, when some
people ask about THE Linux distro, the name Knoppix is often heard.
All because of knx-hdinstall... because of Christian. Though many other people
have contributed to Knoppix, nobody's contribution was as important as
Christian's. Do you really believe you'd be jeopardizing your reputation by
putting a link to his site while specifying that this is none of your work
and you can't ne held responsible... but the darned thing does seem to work.
You already make links to Knoppix sites that offer, or make links to sites
that offer, documentation that is outdated. Why don't you try to keep badly
needed information in a tight clean form? Otherwise, this will degenerate.
Maybe, someday, Christian will think that he's learned enough from writing
this script. It's GPL, I believe, and somebody else can take charge. Or maybe
somebody will come with an installation script written in Perl that does more
things more easily. You can change the link. Christian might work on the new
project or move to another project. His contribution will always remain
precious in Knoppix's history. But you won't end up having outdated, poorly
written or bordering on disinformation HOWTOs all over the net.
I believe I'm talking about a must. Maybe someday, somebody will write good
documentation and it's going to be worth another link. Etc. When you have
twelve(1) links, it will be time to reorganize downwards.
(1) Again, this is not... only :) a religious consideration. There are
ethnologic considerations.
Just my 2 cents, of course, but I believe I have some good arguments. I hope
you lend an ear, maybe both :)
Gilles Pelletier
--
La Masse critique
What are non-lethal weapons?
http://pages.infinit.net/mcrit/meilleur.html
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