Re: Branden's contrib manifesto (was: Hey! Why does everybody love flaming so much? [was: `pure'])
Hi,
>>"Anthony" == Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> writes:
Anthony> On Fri, May 07, 1999 at 02:27:08AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> Why are we putting his code out of Debian? Cause he did not
>> also go and write up the server. "Sure, yuo wrote GPL'd code, which
>> does not link with any non-free libs, but that ain't good enough. Now
>> go back and write the server,, or your code is not free software".
Anthony> Since when is code in contrib not free software?
If it were really fee, it would be in Debian. Debian is seen
as a bastion of free software, hence, if it ain't in Debian ...
Anthony> We're putting his code out of Debian because it's useless in
Anthony> a completely free environment.
In whose opinion? I find it useful, and I don't need the darn
non-free server. I may wa t to study how it is put together. Or
something. We can't determine what uses people put the stuff we write
to. We certainly shoul;d not decide exactly what uses the softwqare
can be put to (I hate that aspect of the GUI -- you can only do what
the programmer thought you would want to do).
Anthony> Not because it's bad, or because it's useless in other
Anthony> environments, and certainly not because it's `not free' (it
Anthony> *is* free afterall), but just because it depends on non-free
Anthony> software.
I think we dffer on the definition of Depend. I think if it
does not require non-free software to sompile, or links to non free
libraries, it does not depend on non free software. I mean, it merely
talks to a socket on my box, which sends a request out on the
network.
>> I wish people would at least consult the dictionary before
>> making seemingly authoritative statements like this.
>>
>> >From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
>> Usage: To compel denotes to urge on by force which cannot be
>> resisted.
Anthony> How is saying "We're going to put this in contrib, not in
Anthony> Debian proper" a force that cannot be resisted?
Actually, we all know that blackmail can be resisted. Yu can
say no to the blackmailer, and take the consequencxes. Usually, that
choice is quite unpleasant (just like if I wrote GPL'd software, only
to have it labeled not free enough to be in Debian).
Anthony> For a third data point, from Collins English Dictionary:
Anthony> `to compel or restrain by force or authority without
Anthony> regard to individual wishes or desires.'
Anthony> What's the force we're using here? What authority do we have
Anthony> over upstream authors' actions? How is saying `Hi, if you
Anthony> want this, get it from contrib instead of main' acting
Anthony> without regard to individual wishes?
The force need not be physical. It can be moral. Some one who
GPL's their code obviously believes in the free software commnuity
(and they are utting their labour where their mouth is). To them,
having the stigma of having their software being called non free can
be painful.
Anthony> Yes, we're urging them to make the server free too. But
Anthony> we're not forcing them, and they can *certainly* resist our
Anthony> demands.
The person who wrote the client may have nothing to do with
the server. If the two are distinct sets of people, you are punishing
the author of the client for the author of the server not making the
server free. Does not seem fair.
Anthony> When we put pine and qmail in non-free, did that coerce the
Anthony> authors of those products to change their license?
We tried. They called our bluff. And they are really in non
free since we do not have a licence to distribute the code, which is
a titally different thing.
Anthony> Where *is* this `irresistable force'?
No one said that the coercion was effectual. That makes it
worse, actually. We are delibrately making our system less capable
and for what? If the coercion is as ineffectual as you say, that
argument does not hold. So, how is the community benefiting from
making Debian less capable?
manoj
--
All the sacrifices and offerings a man desiring merit could make in a
year in the world are not worth a quarter of the better merit of
homage to the righteous. 108
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
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