Re: Censorship in Debian
On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 10:47:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:
> > On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 10:17:56AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >> Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:
>
> >>> If censorship isn't the right word (and at best, it's not ideal), what's
> >>> the right word for the chilling effect on willingness to speak in public
> >>> due to the risk of being ejected from an organization like Debian?
>
> >> Being an adult.
>
> > That was uncalled for and inconsistent with the high bar you have set
> > for yourself in so many other discussions.
>
> How was it uncalled for? It says exactly what I meant. I'm not saying
> anything at all about Scott's behavior; it's the very simple answer to his
> question.
>
> I apologize for apparently giving you the impression that it was an attack
> on Scott. I probably should have unpacked it a lot more. But having to
> mediate your behavior to follow standards that you may not agree with or
> face consequences around what organizations will have you as a member is
> *exactly* being an adult. This is how the world works.
>
> You have to watch what you say at work, or you might be fired. You have
> to be careful of what you say among groups, or that group may eject you.
> You have to follow the standards of an organization of which you're a
> member, or that organization will expel you.
>
> This is just ordinary, perfectly normal adult behavior. Everyone watches
> their behavior and their wording all the time.
>
This explanation puts your earlier comment in a differnet light. Thank
you for elaborating.
> The idea that there is any forum in which people interact as adults where
> there is no chilling effect on one's unfettered speech and where no one
> has to watch their language, tone, or presentation is pure fantasy
> nonsense. Even 4chan has social norms and consequences for going against
> them.
>
> People seem to feel they're unreasonably put-upon by having to think about
> what they're saying *at all*, but this is absurd. Everyone else in the
> world is doing this all the time.
>
I think that perhaps the source of Scott's concern (and to an extent my
own) is that it is not necessarily obvious where the boundary is when it
comes to Debian. The uncertainty here is the problem. I deal with it
by trying to remain well away from the boundary. However, I can see how
some who view Debian as a forum for social interaction in addition to
technical interaction are rightly concerned.
Russel Stuart's earlier message on "Expulsions Policy" got me thinking
that it would be enormously helpful if there were a way to codify a
community standard the way that we have codified package policies. At
least that would be more clear and less ambiguous than what we have now,
in the same way that writing down package policies does for the quality
of packages in the archive.
Sadly, I don't think that is in the realm of the possible.
Regards,
-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Sánchez
Reply to: