On 0808, Andy Smith wrote: >On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: >> any ideas on how to make the situation better? > >To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue >for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a >Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are >that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required >information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and >ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think, >works well. > >There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so >that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free >software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly >each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use. > >I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness; >rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status >quo without significant work. > >The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that >such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of >advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the >mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small >group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never >use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to >continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get >used. There is also a free version of StackOverflow Teams which we could use a pilot to see if it is effective. Honestly, I'm not sure that would be very effective to begin with given that the free version probably limits the number of users. We could also bake a Debian-tailored support site from scratch. I do believe that the majority of users are more self-sufficient than in most communities, but I do see the value of a proper support channel. >If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my >best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic >requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and >giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this. I think this is much-overdo change. >We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help >the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some >the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post >is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this >from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who >should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed. I have also failed to respect these guidelines, including very recently. The mailing list has morphed into a niche Debian community that is very noisy and has a high volume of inappropriate behavior. In part, I think that is because the mailing list itself breeds contempt and animosity towards people who you don't agree with. It also seems like a good number of participants just use it as a grounds to vent their frustrations, which isn't acceptable either. All-in-all there is no excuse for such behavior. Let's remain professional! -- Best regards, Brian T
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