Re: dpkg-get and closed door development ...
> > Oh great. I really love it when people who do not contribute
> > to something come in with demands and start trying to shove the
> > people who do the work around.
> >
> > I am a great believer of if you do not like the product, we
> > shall refund what you paid for it.
> >
> > I never write anything for the bloody ungrateful users. I
> > write for me. The users have no rights to my code not spelled out in
> > the copyright. You don't like it, you can lump it. Write your
> > own. Develop it on usenet for all I care.
> >
> > I think of no reason we should have to consider anything from
> > a rude non-contributor, totally insensitive to the volunteer effort.
>
> I thought about trimming the above, but I can't think of a way that
> wouldn't detract from it.
I'm glad you didn't. It quite accurately reflects the way many developers
feel. Deity and all the other free-software projects I work on I do
because I enjoy it and thus get some personal satisfaction from. The
fact that I can share this with others who also find it useful just makes
it that much more satisfying.
As soon as people start demanding things from me, I just want to tell them
to "go to hell". I'm all for suggestions, bug reports, and fixes. But
I don't work for these people. I have no desire to do things for them
just because they tell me to.
> I wonder, should I keep an eye on the maintainer of packages I use, so
> I don't accidentally file a bug report against kernel-package, or any
> other package maintained by Manoj? After all, I would just be an
> ungrateful user, not a developer, and should have no voice in how
> Debian is developed an maintained. At least, not until my name
> appears in the Holy Keyring and bug reports start getting sent to me.
If you're going to _demand_ something from those packages, then I would
suggest yes. I would suggest doing the same for my packages. If you're
reporting a bug or making a polite "wishlist" request, then we're all
happy to hear from you. That doesn't mean we will do it. Perhaps
we have other plans or simply disagree. I'm afraid you'll just have
to accept that or write your own. That's the nature of free software.
> You and Guy are now both saying that you don't develop packages for
> the users, you develop for yourself. That's not entirely true. If
> you developed purely for yourself, kernel-package would have been a
> tool that sits on your hard-drive, and no one elses. Instead, you
> decided to release it to users, let them pound on it, and have, in the
> past, graciously responded to users requests and bug reports
> (including mine).
As I said above, we write it for our own satisfaction. We get satisfaction
from writing it and using it, but we also get satisfaction from providing
useful tools to others.
> And while it may be true that your packages are written for you, I
> thought that Deity was being written for users.
No, it's being written for our own satisfaction. We get satisfaction from
knowing we're helping users. However, when people get upset because "we're
not doing it the way they want", our satisfaction goes right down the tubes.
If you want something, ask politely. If you don't like something, suggest
alternatives. At the first hint of a flame, we don't want to do anything
for you. In fact, we want to do just the opposite just so we can piss you
off as much as you're pissing us off. (Note: I mean a general "you", not
you specifically.)
> > Any move now to change the name from Deity shall definitely
> > piss one person off, and that is me (For what that is worth).
>
> For what it's worth, the discussion to change the name wasn't brought
> forth by a user, but by Bruce Perens, who, when shoved, cited Ian
> Murdock as another person concerned by it. Neither of whom deserve
> the level of contempt that is implied by you comments above. But I
> don't expect that to matter, since Bruce got attacked with "what have
> you done for us lately?", instead of respected.
Bruce didn't politely ask if we would consider changing the name. He
came in and told us that we _must_ change the name, and the proceeded
to go about doing that without even consulting with the Deity team. Now
see my above discussion about satisfaction.
> Although I don't apparantly have the right to comment, I don't think
> Deity is a bad name. I think it is in keeping with the traditions in
> the Unix Community (as indescribable as those traditions are). I
> remember discussions about which Debian package had the most offensive
> name, satan, bitchx, or sex. Many Unix commands are slightly cryptic,
> "cute", and potentially offensive to those who don't or won't see the
> humor in them.
The actual choice of a name became irrelevant to the problems that came up.
It became a shoving match with each side getting their backs up more and
more.
The Deity team will eventually pick a name (possibly "deity"; possibly
something else). Note that this does not include Bruce who reads the
deity list only as a courtesy to his position.
> "Deity" does have some drawbacks. The most important, IMHO, is the
> spectre of trojans. Someone mentioned that "mkae" is already a common
> trojan, and "diety" will almost certainly become one as well,
> especially if deity expands past use by Debian. This is compounded by
> the fact that it is usually run as root.
Hmmm... If a user can put something in root's path, there is already a
problem. Root should never have "." in its path.
> > who had not taken a stance on the name untol now
> >
> > ps: not that I have contributed much to deity; but I do contribute to
> > Debian.
>
> Then by your own logic, you should have as much say in Deity as I have
> in kernel-package.
Though Manoj may not think so, I'd say he has contributed quite a bit
to Deity. He may not have done much on the code, but neither have I.
Brian
( bcwhite@verisim.com )
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