Re: RH and GNOME
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On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Scott McDermott wrote:
> Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 01:57:42AM -0500:
> > Petra,> we have to maintain a user base greater than 'us' (meaning
> > Petra,> developers) in order to survive,
> >
> > And I think that user base has never been in jeapoardy,
> > really. After all, IMHO, this is the best darned distribution out
> > there. I think there are enough people out there who feel the same
> > for us not to be running in fear of the sky falling.
>
> I have never heard of a Debian user "defecting" to RH. The reverse, is
> commonplace.
wow aren't we living a sheltered life. Debian _users_ defect to rh all the
time, because the knowlage of alien is not comon place enouph. dpkg should
be made to call alien on a rh package automaticly ... ie: dpkg -i
some_package.rpm would trigger alein, and then dpkg... so that it's
automatic, and easy for newbies, and non-power users, to install rh
packages.
>
> New users are almost certain to use RH. This is not necessarily a bad
> thing, but it does mean that RH has a higher growth rate. When Debian
> growth rate goes *down* then there is a problem; I don't see this
> happening, it's not even plateaued.
>
> RH is largely for new users and is the obvious choice -- I still
> recommend it to new users. Debian is the obvious choice for the mature
> user.
Why? ... this is what I've been trying to tell you all. new users will
most likely install red hat. WHY? ... WHY? ... because we (debian) is not
new user/user freindly ... we should fix this problem ... I wonder ...
should I file a bug? maybe you will listen to me then instead of accuseing
me of just trying to turn debian into another 95 wantabe.
>
> > I think I do not want to be busting my chops for such, pardon
> > me, idiots. Any one who refuses to learn how to use their tools
> > effectively is being short sighted. I have no problem in accepting
> > that Windows 98 is the perfect OS for such people.
>
> It's a matter of efficiency. People that have no interest in computers
> but just need certain apps for productivity should not have to worry a
> whit about their OS. This is the place for Windows and while some
> aspects could certainly be improved and refined, it does a damned good
> job. Somebody who actually works with computers, operating systems,
> networking, should obviously invest so as to acheive greater efficiency
> later and be able to manipulate their computer on a lower level, have
> greater modularity, flexibility, et cetera.
why, why are you defineing linux as a second hand os, with things like
kde, and gnome and staroffice, or aplixware anyone can be productive ...
without having to use win95... why are you happy to let those who hate 95
still have to use it because your not willing to spend a little time to
help them get started in linux.
>
> I think that RH, GNOME, KDE, et all are attempts to make Linux viable
> for people that don't want to learn about their computer, and while this
> is a valid goal -- it's really not what Debian is about, from what I
> gather from the people here. Debian has no need to rid themselves of
> the assumption that the people using it care about their computer and
> are here to learn and use for the long-term pay off.
then debian should redefine what it is about... in a more clear manner. if
debian is content to let users, sink, fine but state it on the web page,
and make it known. it's like you know I'm right but are to ashamed to
publish the fact that ... you don't care.
>
> > Not every OS is meant for everyone.
>
> Well, Windows tries to be :) This is its failing. Imagine an NT domain
> admin who really just...doesn't understand networking. It's not all
> that uncommon :) Windows wants to make it easier for these people to
> not understand. Supposedly this makes it easier because other people do
> your admin work for you, but IMO people in charge of this stuff should
> be highly proficient and capable, they have no business having the keys
> to things that they don't understand.
why can't we make linux, just a little easier to use, for the new users.
> But then MS wouldn't be able to sell as much software -- the human
> tendancy among many is to be lazy.
well amoung this project, from what I've been told. yeah, humans are
lazy... for the most part. and most ppl are selfish uncaring beasts with
no right to claim the title human.
>
> > I think the problem is that the solutions we espouse are not
> > close enough to windows for your liking.
>
> To this I would say, "use RH, or Windows" :) No need to clutter the
> Debian project
you aperantly jumped into the middle of this with no clear understandinf
of what I'm talking about. read the archives... I'm not for making debian
another win95, but the reason most ppl chose rh is that it has great
newbie suport.... why can't we... and when I say suport I mean that it's
easy to install and use the basic utilities of linux after installing....
>
> > Petra,> "We (Debian) should put forth the effort to care for our
> > Petra,> users, just a little bit more than we do.
> >
> > Really? How? By abandoning the users who do not run a GUI?
> > Half of my machines do not run X.
>
> I really don't think anyone is suggesting that. GUI is superfluous in
> many instances and the developers here are aware of that.
exactly ... if ppl could read they would have seen the work OPTION in what
I wrote.
>
> > By making it harder to adminster a system remotely? A text
> > based system works under telnet. I refuse to abandone those users.
>
> These are underpinnings of UNIX. No one is suggesting to make things
> inaccessible. It sounds like you're just making this a personal
> argument.
concur
>
> > Petra,> We should not, comprimise our software standards, for
> > Petra,> "freeness". We should work to write a "Debian Standard
> > Petra,> licence" that is basicly gpl, without the bugs.
> >
> > What bugs? I find the GPL to work exactly as it should. We
> > need a strong license that ptomotes and actively propogates free
> > software, and the GPL does that.
>
> GPL is largely inflexible and makes commercialization difficult. This
> is great for some -- not for others. I think pragmatists realize that
> refusing to acknowledge commercialism, especially in our capitalist
> economy, is simply fanaticism and will get nobody anywhere. This isn't
> to say that the GPL does what it sets out to do, hence the bruhaha when
> people don't like just how well it does its job.
>
> > Why do you think a X based system is better? That would
> > immediately abandon people who do not run X.
>
> How do you figure? How does having GUI admin tools preclude having CLI
> tools? They are not mutually exclusive...
>
> > It would make
> > adminstering a workstation harder. It would restrict what one can do
> > to whatever the GUI programmer has provided buttons for.
>
> I think you're a little too used to MS' incarnations...there are ways to
> make GUIs flexible and such, scripted, etc. Some people actually prefer
> a GUI...you and I do not. No need to abandon those that do, and no need
> for closed-minded zealotry.
>
> --
> Scott
>
>
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