Re: RH and GNOME
Hi,
>>"Petra," == Petra, Kevin J Poorman <ewigin@SoftHome.net> writes:
Petra> On 23 Jul 1998, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> And I see no evidence that we are not working really haed to
>> resolve bugs in the software. I fail to see what you wish to
>> accomplish by this statement: if indeed we were ignoring hiccups in
>> our distribution, you would have a point; right now, this comes close
>> to mere complaining, and is not really constructive.
Petra> I'm sorry you feel that way. I realy do, because I am pointing
Petra> out a problem, but you see the problem isn't i`n software,
Petra> it's in the attitude and mindset of developers like you.
Really? I have seen no proposals, no suggestions, and in fact,
nothing specific beyond "We are user unfriendly. We should have a GUI
based install". Have you looked at the boot floppies? Or at APT? Have
you looked at the various thinkgs like sendmailconfig that Debian has
put in to help configure complex packages? Have you looked at
kernel-package, that helps people to compile kernels?
What bloody mindset are you talking about? You come and accuse
people of not being freindly to users, and berate them for not doing
anything, totally ignoring the ease-of-use efforts under way, and
ignoring the efforts that people are making, and so far, I have seen
little that is constructive from you, all I see is complaints that
are too general and diffuse to be helpful.
>>
>> Petra> what we need to realise is that ppl now want everything given
>> Petra> to them on a gold plater, yesterday. ppl and that includes
>> Petra> managers and IS workers, don't want to take the time to read
>> Petra> docs, or configure things.
>>
>> I think I do not want to be busting my chops for such, pardon
>> me, idiots. Any one who refuses to learn how to use their tools
>> effectively is being short sighted. I have no problem in accepting
>> that Windows 98 is the perfect OS for such people.
Petra> ah, yes, such a selfish attitude. I'm not saying we make
Petra> EVERYTHING like 98, but a few things... like, installation,
Petra> and manpages.
windows has decent manpages? really? and what is wrong weith
the boot floppies now? Can we have some specifics, which could
actually (horrors!) help, rather than a diffuse, unspecific
complaint?
>> Not every OS is meant for everyone.
Petra> NO aperantly debian, is only developed for those, who ALREADY
Petra> know enouph knowlage to use linux on it's own.
Correct.
>> What the hell makes you think we do not care for our users?
Petra> what makes you think we do, I mean look at your attitude
My attitude is that I help those who help themselves. I am not
very sympathetic to people who want everything right now, and do not
want to spend time to learn, yes. If you think this is user
unfreindly, so be it.
Petra> ... it seems to me to be ... sink or swim .... How about
Petra> ... Heres a life jacket to get you through the first storm...
You are great at analogies and generalizations, however, some
specifics would really help. I would say Pikes "The UNIX programming
Environment" or the LDP's basic books are the life jacket.
If you think that is not enough, I am sure people would be
grateful for patches / concrete suggestions.
Petra> Oh, yeah now theres a good idea....
>> We are indeed striving for ease of use, and for a geater
>> degree of assistance in configuration of complex software.
Petra> Examples? ... apt and?
kernel-package. bindconfig. sendmailconfig. postinst scripts
that set up complex packages. dwww. menu. the boot floppies
package. http://localhost/doc/.
>> Actually, I think you have no idea of what you are talking
>> about.
Petra> well, your entitled to that opinion.
Until you give me any specifics, I have nothing to change my
opinion.
>> You are somewhat like the management, who pick up nice, big
>> sounding ideas all the time, but really have not thought through the
>> nitty gritty dirty details.
Petra> Oh, what a nice thought... a way out for you.... Come on. please try
Petra> harder.
Me try harder? What about you putting some substance to your
accusations? How about you putting together *one* technical proposal?
How about you putting together a single policy amendment? How about
you doing anything but somplain in this forum?
Failing that, how about pointing out one single specific
improvement we can make? (Something more specific that we should use
a GUI to set things up or that we should be user friendly)
Petra> did I say that? ... or did you make that up. I think you made
Petra> that up, because you assume that everyone who doesn't see it
Petra> your way, must NEED and WANT a gui. all I'm saying is that a
Petra> life jacket would be good for our users...
In other words, you do not even think a GUI is what we need,
you want another mindless platitude. "A life Jacket", indeed.
>> What bugs? I find the GPL to work exactly as it should. We
>> need a strong license that ptomotes and actively propogates free
>> software, and the GPL does that.
Petra> while I haven't memorised the entire gpl, what I have read leves me to
Petra> think that there are a fewq "bugs" in it.
Again, when asked for specifics, you balk. I think you are
merely trolling.
>> I personally am against the certification prtograms, since in
>> my experience none of them so far have been worth anything
>> much.
Petra> sounds like you couldn't pass one anyway.... well with your
Petra> reading skills and all.
Amusing. So far, there had been little ad hominem attacks in
this discussion. It is my beief that resorting to personal attacks
means that ones technical argument is weak.
Most of the people I have come across with the
certification were people who lacked formal education in the area,
and were indeeed, technicians, and lacked the ability to think beond
the envelope.
Petra> this whole kde stuff could be fixed with a simple clause to the gpl.
Then that license would fail to do what the GPL does. I think
I don't want a simple fix to the KDE problem; I thin it
really hurts the free software community.
manoj
--
"Go on! Shoot me again! I enjoy it! I love the smell of burnt
feathers and gunpowder and cordite!" Daffy Duck, "Duck! Rabbit!
Duck!"
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> <http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/>
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
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