Re: We can halve volume by not allowing nondevelopers to post
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THE PROBLEM:
In article <[🔎] 14070.19200.244977.305048@chiark.greenend.org.uk> you write:
>The situation we have now is that the list is largely useless for its
>original main purpose: internal nonconfidential discussions amongst
>developers.
>The result is that many developers have taken to having discussions
>which _ought_ to be public on -private because -devel has so much
>volume. We're getting to the point where -private is becoming the
>default place for some people to raise issues, because they don't
>subscribe to -devel.
I can't comment on this issue, as I don't know what type of posts
fall into that category.
Just a few quick questions from a non-developer to developers
(so I can try and identify the actual problem and not just the
symptoms):
Why are these lists useless for internal nonconfidential discussions
amongst developers?
a) Do developers miss important posts because of the high bandwidth? b)
Or maybe developers feel the need to read every message that is posted?
c) Or could it be that the bandwidth is too high for some people and/or
the costs are too high?
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MY SOLUTIONS:
The rest is IMHO, as a non-developer:
If a) is the main problem, there should be a way to highlight important
posts (eg glibc 2.1 WILL be uploaded) from other posts (eg SHOULD glibc
2.1 be used? --- it is less important knowing it MIGHT be used then
knowing it WILL be used). This could be implemented in a number of ways
(eg another mailing list for important developers announcements and/or
special subject). I think only a few developers (eg release manager, or
whatever the role is called) need to be able to do this. No flame wars
ever need to occur. If this has already been done, then a) shouldn't be
an issue.
b) Developers shouldn't feel the need to read every message in
debian-devel unless it is related to the work that they are doing. Is
this difficult? There are so many different things happening in Debian
that I personally would have problems keeping up even if the noise was
removed. I don't think it can be expected that every developer will be
interested in every post on debian-devel. If I am ever reading a thread
that seems the slightest bit uninteresting or develops into a flame war,
I simply push K, for kill thread. Are developers expected to read every
message?
c) this is a more serious issue, but before you propose to ban
non-developers postings, please justify that us non-developers make
postings that are not important to Debian... ie it looks like part of
this thread has developed into a flame war... Are the participants (ie
anyone who replies on this mailing list and not in private) non-Debian
developers????
IMHO anything that is important to Debian should get posted!
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OTHER PROPOSED SOLUTIONS:
The rest is IMHO, as a non-developer of what I don't like about the
current proposals:
Somebody suggested that developers should take responsibility for
reposting posts from non-developers. If the idea behind banning
non-developers from posting is to limit the workload of developers,
what is the point when it is just going to be increased again with
non-developers placing requests to have their articles reposted? Should
workload would add to delays when the article is posted, and by that
time the thread may/should be long dead.
Of course, I am not a developer, maybe developers would be happy get
lots of requests "please post this on debian-devel" when maybe they
aren't even interested in that topic. You could have published addresses
(ie anyone who wants to post on subject X, should mail request to person
Y), but this isn't going to help with the workload issue....
How could I get a developer to repost if I didn't know who is
interested?
Another proposal was a special mailing list for non-developers, for now
I will call it debian-discuss. If I posted my messages on NFS-root to
debian-discuss, ow can I be sure that other Debian developers interested
in NFS-Root will also read debian-discuss?
Furthermore, it would increase the workload of both the potential Debian
developer in order to post his/her ideas to the right audience. Do you
want to attract new developers, or do you want to send the message
"we already have too many developers, go away..."? (this is meant
as a serious question, not a flame).
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CONCLUSION:
>The problem is not off-topic postings, either. Very little of what is
>currently on -devel can clearly be called off-topic. For example,
>several people complain about this discussion, and the `censorship'
>thread. However, I think that both of these are clearly correctly
>placed here on -devel.
You say here that most postings (I presume this also means from
non-Debian Developers) ore not off-topic. My assumption is that anything
not off-topic should be considered important to Debian. You also say
that you don't want non-Debian developers to post. Are you really saying
that you want to prevent articles important to Debian from being posted
here? I am confused...
Maybe my assumption that anything on-topic is important for Debian is
wrong... In which case perhaps the rules for the mailing list should be
changed.
>I agree that closing -devel to nondevelopers might seem arbitrary and
>`unfair'. But, I don't think it is: -devel is _for_ developers, and
>it's not unfair or unreasonable to try to make it used for and useable
>for that purpose.
IMHO as a non-developer:
It is important to do what is right for Debian. However, I feel that
even if you do close this mailing list of to non-developers, you would
have exactly the same problems, simply because the number of Debian
developers is growing (please correct me if I am wrong...)
Comments?
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