Débat de l'élection du responsable du projet Debian, 2007

<don_armstrong> Nous n'attendons plus que quelques candidats maintenant ; nous allons commencer dans un instant. [21:31]
<SteveMcIntyre> Bien [21:39]
<don_armstrong> Cette année, je serai assisté par MJ Ray (slef) et Neil McGovern (Maulkin). [21:43]
<don_armstrong> Ils suivront #debian-dpl-discuss et sélectionneront les questions que vous posez aux candidats ; si vous souhaitez poser une question, veuillez la porter à leur attention. [21:44]
<don_armstrong> Cette année encore, le débat est constitué de trois parties principales. [21:45]
<don_armstrong> La première est une section de longues réponses où les questions sont posées à tous les candidats qui disposent de 8 minutes pour faire une longue réponse écrite. [21:45]
<don_armstrong> (heu, plutôt 6 minutes) [21:45]
<don_armstrong> La seconde est une section de courtes réponses où des question sont posées à tous les candidats, ils ont chacun 1 minute et demie ou 5 lignes pour répondre, le plus court des deux. [21:45]
<don_armstrong> La dernière section est un débat chacun pour soi. [21:45]
<don_armstrong> Cette année les candidats sont Wouter Verhelst, Aigars Mahinovs, Gustavo Franco, Sven Luther, Sam Hocevar, Steve McIntyre, Raphaël Hertzog, Anthony Towns et Simon Richter. [21:45]
<don_armstrong> La première question leur a déjà été posées : [21:45]
<don_armstrong> 1. Veuillez vous présenter brièvement et nous dire pourquoi vous êtes candidat au poste de responsable du projet Debian cette année. [21:45]
<AigarsMahinovs> J'ai 23 ans, je suis programmeur et je vie en Lettonie. Je suis l'un des fondateurs de l'association lettone des logiciels libres et j'ai participé au combat contre les brevets logiciels dans l'Union européenne. Actuellement, je termine mon mémoire au Royaume-Uni. [21:51]
<AigarsMahinovs> Je suis candidat au poste de responsable du projet Debian car je pense que j'ai des idées et une vision qui peuvent permettre à Debian de se maintenir sur le devant de la scène du mouvement des logiciels libres. [21:51]
<SamHocevar> Bonjour, je suis un bidouilleur français et je suis scientifique. Je contribue à [21:52]
<SamHocevar> Debian depuis 8 années maintenant. Je suis candidat au poste de responsable du projet Debian car je vois [21:52]
<SamHocevar> des problèmes (principalement de communication) que je pense être importants et qui [21:52]
<SamHocevar> mettent Debian en danger à la fois en tant que communauté et que produit. Je pense que [21:52]
<SamHocevar> je peux les résoudre de manière efficace et je ne suis pas entièrement satisfait de la manière dont [21:52]
<SamHocevar> on s'en est occupé ni même de leur reconnaissance par le passé. [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> Je m'appelle Wouter Verhelst, et je suis développeur Debian depuis 2001. [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> En ce temps-là j'étais encore à l'école je suis devenu [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> développeur Debian car je pensais que ce serait une bonne introduction dans la grande [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> scène des logiciels libre et à code source ouvert, mais je ne prévoyais pas de rester très [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> longtemps. Ça ne m'a pas pris longtemps pour m'apercevoir que Debian est l'une des [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> forces motrices au sein du mouvement des logiciels libres, et que ne pas [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> rester serait une grave erreur. [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> . [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> Être candidat au poste de responsable du projet Debian est quelque chose à laquelle je pense depuis environ [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> 2004, si je ne me trompe pas. Personnellement, je pense que le responsable du projet Debian est, ou [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> devrait être, quelqu'un qui travaille facilement avec les gens, car sa principale activité est [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> la coordination. Je pense que j'ai les qualités requises pour le faire. [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> . [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> De plus, j'espère être capable de légèrement modifier la culture de Debian [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> dans le bon sens. Ceci demandera l'aide des autres développeurs, mais j'ai [21:52]
<WouterVerhelst> confiance en nous. [21:52]
<SteveMcIntyre> Je m'appelle Steve McIntyre, je suis développeur Debian depuis longtemps et j'ai beaucoup d'expérience de développement, d'empaquetage et de tentatives pour organiser des groupes sur les logiciels libres et les rassembler. Vous en saurez plus dans mon programme. J'ai 32 ans, je suis célibataire, je vis à Cambridge au Royaume-Uni et je travaille pour en entreprise qui fabrique des [21:52]
<SteveMcIntyre> ..boîtes de télévision sur IP basées sur Linux. [21:52]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [21:53]
<SteveMcIntyre> Je me porte candidat au poste de responsable du projet Debian car je pense que je peux y faire du bon travail, à la fois en représentant Debian et en travaillant aux buts que j'ai soulignés. [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> Je suis développeur Debian depuis 1998 et j'ai accumulé beaucoup d'expérience pendant ces années. [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> je suis progressivement passé de simple empaqueteur à membre actif de [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> l'équipe d'assurance qualité. Cela signifie que désormais je travaille plus sur des problèmes d'infrastructures [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> que sur mes paquets. J'ai écrit le système de suivi des paquets et j'administre [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> alioth.debian.org notre installation de Gforge. [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> J'ai déjà été candidat une fois au poste de responsable du projet Debian en 2002 car j'avais beaucoup de projets [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> intéressants. Depuis lors j'en ai accompli plusieurs et d'autres ont été [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> implantés sans que j'y participe. [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> Je veux utiliser cette expérience pour améliorer Debian car j'ai rencontré beaucoup [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> de problèmes. Mais je suis sûr que je ne peux pas le faire seul, j'ai besoin de beaucoup de gens pour [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> m'assister. C'est pourquoi je veux travailler avec une équipe du responsable du projet Debian. J'aime le travail [21:53]
<RaphaelHertzog> des autres et j'ai besoin de leur aide pour faire de Debian un endroit plus agréable pour travailler. [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> Bonjour, je m'appelle Anthony Towns, ou aj. Je suis candidat à ma réélection pour poursuivre [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> les choses sur lesquelles j'ai travaillées l'année passée et pour m'assurer que nous disposons [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> d'un processus de transition pour les gens reçoivent de l'aide dans cette fonction plutôt [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> que d'être jetés dans la fosse aux lions. J'ai vu combien il y a de choses à [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> gérer en tant que responsable du projet Debian auxquelles je ne m'attendais pas, je n'ai pas listé celles trop spécifiques à [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> cette année, mais je pense que celles que j'ai listées (responsables, kit d'archive de Debian, ambassadeurs [21:53]
<AnthonyTowns> et assistant du responsable du projet Debian) marqueront un bon pas en avant. [21:53]
<don_armstrong> Voici la première question posée aux candidats : [21:54]
<don_armstrong> L'un des principaux thèmes de ces derniers mois a été la communication, de la communication interne aux équipes et entre elles, à la communication entre utilisateurs et responsables de paquets. Que prévoyez-vous de faire en tant que responsable du projet Debian pour résoudre ce problème de communication ? [21:54]
<WouterVerhelst> Travailler à l'amélioration de la communication n'est pas chose simple ; cela demande de travailler [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> sur notre culture, en plus des quelques choses qui peuvent être faites au [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> niveau technique. [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> . [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> Pour la partie technique, je pense à des manières de faire travailler par équipes [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> principales plus transparentes dans autant de voies que possible. Le suivi de requêtes (rt) [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> qui a été suggéré est une chose, mais la plus grande part de cette transparence [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> dépend des équipes principales elles-mêmes ; je devrai travailler avec elles pour [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> obtenir cela. [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> . [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> Ensuite, j'espère aider à améliorer notre culture de débat en suggérant [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> quelques règles auxquelles les gens pourrons se soumettre (sur la base du volontariat), et en [21:58]
<WouterVerhelst> participant activement aux discussions où je sens que des problèmes existent. [21:58]
<AigarsMahinovs> Change de refrain. Il y a et il y aura toujours des problèmes de communication dans une organisation aussi grande que ce qu'est devenu Debian. [21:59]
<AigarsMahinovs> Il est important d'identifier les points de blocage aussi tôt que possible et de s'en occuper avant que les problèmes liés à la communication ne dépassent les bornes. [21:59]
<AigarsMahinovs> Cependant de manière générale : prendre du recul, se calmer et essayer un autre voie seront toujours mes conseils. [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> J'aimerais encourager les gens à plus penser à la manière dont ils disent [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> les choses sur IRC et sur les listes de diffusion (en particulier). Une grande partie des [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> problèmes vient des gens qui ne pensent pas aux effets de ce qu'ils [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> disent et de la manière dont ils le disent. [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> J'inciterai donc diverses équipes principales et diverses personnes à [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> envoyer des mises à jours régulières de l'état d'avancement de leurs travaux pour que les gens puissent voir ce qui [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> se passe. [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> Les deux sont liés ; nous avons besoin de faire de nos listes et de nos canaux [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> des endroits plus sains pour que les gens y envoient ces mises à jour sans crainte [21:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> d'invectives. [21:59]
<SamHocevar> Il est difficile de faire communiquer les gens s'ils ne le veulent pas, [21:59]
<SamHocevar> en particulier lorsqu'ils vous rendent service. Mais je trouve que c'est un abus [21:59]
<SamHocevar> de pouvoir d'avoir une position clef et de ne pas communiquer, [21:59]
<SamHocevar> je voudrais donc rendre obligatoires les comptes-rendus au moins [21:59]
<SamHocevar> pour les délégués ou les équipes de délégués. Des manquements à ces rapports seraient [21:59]
<SamHocevar> considérés comme un manque de temps et j'attribuerai donc [21:59]
<SamHocevar> des assistants supplémentaires à ces équipes. [21:59]
<SamHocevar> Je crois également que rassembler à nouveau des services éparpillés dans [21:59]
<SamHocevar> l'infrastructure de Debian peut aussi améliorer la communication passive en [21:59]
<SamHocevar> rendant inutile certaines demandes d'informations. [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> Je ne pense pas que les problèmes de communication soient quelque chose que les responsable du projet Debian puisse [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> résoudre de façon magique — aussi bien Martin que Branden ont travaillé dur là-dessus [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> sans parvenir à un grand résultat, et au moins Bdale, Martin et Branden [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> ont eu des difficultés à atteindre leurs propres buts de communication en tant que [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> responsables du projet Debian. J'ai particulièrement essayé de placer une limite basse à mes propres comptes-rendus en tant que responsable du projet Debian, [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> mais je pense qu'avec l'aide de Steve nous avons réussi à avoir un assez bon [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> exemple d'envois réguliers et intéressants à d-d-a et ailleurs. Comme je le remarquai [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> dans [0] (et depuis lors), il y a eu des progrès significatifs sur le paramétrage [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> d'un serveur rt géré officiellement par l'administration système de Debian pour suivre les problèmes qui ne sont pas liés aux paquets (tels [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> que les requêtes d'administration et sur les porte-clefs) ce qui était l'une des choses qui [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> étaient dans l'agenda, et je m'attends à ce que cela amène effectivement une amélioration [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> substantielle lorsqu'il sera opérationnel. En outre, j'ai essayé [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> d'encourager d'autres personnes à signaler ce qu'elles faisaient sur d-d-a quand [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> ça avait de l'intérêt, et je pense que ça a bien marché la plupart du temps. [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> . [21:59]
<AnthonyTowns> [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/02/msg00204.html [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> Je veux montrer au projet comment nous pouvons communiquer et apporter des solutions [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> aux problèmes. Je prévois de faire cela au sein de l'équipe du responsable du projet Debian. Je l'ai sélectionnée pour que [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> tous ses membres aient une très bonne capacité de communication. Ils n'ont pas l'habitude de [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> se lancer dans des discutions sans fin. Mais ils représentent tout de même la diversité du [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> projet. [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> Je veux aussi rédiger certains principes décrivant ce que nous attendons de nos [21:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> équipes principales, en particulier en matière de communication avec le reste du [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> projet. J'ai traité la fonction d'administrateur d'Alioth de manière ouverte [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> et j'ai toujours acceptée de l'aide. Il n'y a aucune raison pour que nous ne puissions pas étendre [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> cela à toutes nos équipes. Mais elles auront besoin de notre aide, il y a une raison pour laquelle [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> elles communiques mal : nous sommes simplement trop négatifs sur la plupart de la [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> communication publique de chacun fait. Cela doit changer. [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> Bien sûr, je continuerai à informer et à impliquer le projet dans tous ces [22:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> projets. [22:00]
<don_armstrong> Voici la deuxième question posée aux candidats : [22:00]
<don_armstrong> Nous sommes affublés d'une assez mauvaise réputation pour ne pas savoir tenir nos prévisions de publications. Que prévoyez-vous de faire en tant que responsable du projet Debian pour nous aider à tenir ces prévision ? [22:00]
<AigarsMahinovs> Ne pas prévoir de publication cette année. Je pense qu'une version tous les deux ou trois ans est approprié pour Debian. [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> Nous avons fait bien mieux en publiant une version en un temps plus court cette fois-ci [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> (ou, nous le ferons), ce qui est une bonne chose. La raison [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> de cette réussite est, je pense, l'excellente [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> manière dont les responsables de publications ont maintenu l'ensemble des développeurs à jours de [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> l'avancement de la publication pendant tout son développement (par opposition à [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> simplement sa fin, lorsque le gel approche). [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> Il y a toujours quelques éléments qui pourraient être étoffés la prochaine fois ; par [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> exemple, je pense qu'il serait prudent d'essayer d'éviter les surprises, telles [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> que les problèmes avec les hôtes des démons de construction des mises à jour de sécurité que nous avons rencontrés pour les publications [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> de Woody et de Sarge, et les problèmes avec le noyau que nous avons actuellement. [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> Éviter tout cela sera un défi, mais je suis sûr que nos responsables de publication [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> sont prêts à le relever. [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> Si nécessaire, je les aiderai autant que possible, mais je ne pense pas que cela [22:05]
<WouterVerhelst> sera nécessaire. [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> Je ne m'attends pas à faire autre chose pour améliorer les temps de publication que [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> d'apporter mon soutien aux responsables de publication si je le peux. L'année dernière, cela a [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> consisté à essayer de le donner plus de temps pour travailler sur cette publication en leur permettant [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> d'y travailler à temps plein, à augmenter la fréquences des scripts de promotion [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> de la file d'attente d'entrée et vers la distribution de test à deux fois par jour, et à être capable d'aider [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> à corriger les bogues et les problèmes des archives. Je pense qu'il est préférable d'écouter leurs [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> suggestions pour améliorer le processus et le calendrier de publication et de les y [22:05]
<AnthonyTowns> aider car ce sont les personnes les plus familières des problèmes que nous rencontrons actuellement. [22:05]
<RaphaelHertzog> Bien que nous n'ayons pas atteint notre date prévue de publication avec Etch, nous avons vraiment une [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> équipe de publication active et qui communique. Aussi, en tant que responsable du projet Debian, je suis prêt à discuter [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> de tous les problèmes qu'ils ont rencontrés et je ferai de mon mieux pour éviter ces embûches [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> pour Lenny. [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> Je n'ai pas de grand plans sur la manière de gérer la publication de Lenny mais je sais que d'autres [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> membres de mon équipe y ont plus d'intérêt (Sam en particulier). Je suis sûr que [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> nous aurons des discussions intéressantes à ce sujet rapidement après la [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> publication d'Etch. Je surveillerai ces débats et m'impliquerai comme d'habitude. [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> Mais vraiment, la décision appartient aux responsables de publication, mais comme ils écoutent [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> ce que nous avons à dire, il n'y a pas de problème. [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> La seule aide que j'apporterai pour la prochaine publication sera peut-être d'attirer plus de [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> contributeurs, dont certains augmenteront, j'espère, le nombre de [22:06]
<RaphaelHertzog> personnes faisant des mises à jour indépendantes pour la publication... [22:06]
<SamHocevar> Ce n'est probablement pas au responsable du projet Debian de décider. Personnellement [22:06]
<SamHocevar> j'aimerais avoir une date fixe et annuelle de publication, avec une période de gel [22:06]
<SamHocevar> de six mois et une publication ou un ajout « bureautique » optionnel tous les six mois. [22:06]
<SamHocevar> La force de travail est le problème clef, notre ratio de paquets par développeur n'a pas [22:06]
<SamHocevar> beaucoup changé depuis le début, et je crois qu'augmenter le [22:06]
<SamHocevar> nombre de nos développeurs (comme expliqué dans mon programme) aiderait à [22:06]
<SamHocevar> atteindre cet objectif. C'est aux responsables de publication de décider en [22:06]
<SamHocevar> dernier ressort et bien qu'en tant que responsable du projet Debian j'essayerai de peser dans la discussion [22:06]
<SamHocevar> pour atteindre un tel but, ce n'est pas quelque chose que je leur imposerai [22:06]
<SamHocevar> s'ils pensent que ce n'est pas réaliste. [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> Le calendrier de publication est une chose sur laquelle le responsable du projet Debian n'a pas nécessairement [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> beaucoup d'influence. Le principal ici, à mon humble avis, est [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> de penser à un ensemble raisonnable d'objectifs et de dates de publication [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> et d'y faire adhérer les gens. Le truc est alors de réellement [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> faire travailler les gens pour atteindre ces buts c'est [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> plus facile à dire qu'à faire. Trouver un accord est une bonne chose sur ce point. [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> Suivre le travail de publication sur toute [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> la période plutôt que simplement vers la fin – ce fut [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> une amélioration majeure du cycle de publication d'Etch par rapport à [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> Sarge, est quelque chose que j'applaudis chez l'équipe de publication. Ça ne [22:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> demande pas grand chose de la part du responsable du projet Debian... [22:06]
<don_armstrong> Question suivante : Avez-vous passé le processus du nouveau responsable pour entrer dans Debian ? Est-il adapté ? Qu'en pensez-vous et que souhaitez-vous y modifier ? [22:08]
<AigarsMahinovs> Oui, je suis entré dans Debian via le processus du nouveau responsable en septembre 2000. Le tout a pris environ un mois car je répondais aux demandes très rapidement. Mais l'approbation du responsable de compte de Debian a pris deux semaines supplémentaires. [22:12]
<AigarsMahinovs> Le processus du nouveau responsable est pertinent et je pense qu'il est plus ou moins approprié, mais les délais de plus d'une année dûs au responsable des comptes de Debian ne le sont pas. [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> Oui, je suis passé par le processus du nouveau responsable, que bien le temps nécessaire pour [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> entrer était particulièrement court en ce temps-là (j'ai déposé ma candidature en novembre [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> 2000 et j'ai obtenu mon compte en février 2001). [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> Je pense être la preuve vivante de la nécessité du processus du nouveau responsable. [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> Rétrospectivement, je ne crois pas que j'étais totalement prêt à devenir développeur Debian lorsque je l'ai passé ; [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> pour obtenir de bon résultats, j'aurais probablement dû attendre un peu plus longtemps. C'est [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> arrivé, et tout allait bien pour finir, mais il n'y avait aucune garantie [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> que cela aille bien. [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> Devenir un nouveau responsable plus vite ou plus rapidement ou tout ce que vous voulez au prix de la [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> qualité n'est pas une idée que je soutiens. Et passer le processus du nouveau responsable n'est pas [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> impossible aujourd'hui, non plus ; Je suis responsable de candidature depuis environ une année maintenant, [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> et je suis fier de dire que mon premier nouveau responsable (Lucas Nussbaum) est devenu développeur Debian [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> depuis quelques semaines. [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> Si des gens peuvent penser à des manières de l'améliorer, cependant, et s'il est généralement [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> admis que ce sont effectivement des améliorations, alors je ne vois pas pourquoi nous [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> ne devrions pas implanter ces améliorations ; mais je ne vois pas de domaines [22:12]
<WouterVerhelst> d'améliorations possibles. [22:12]
<SamHocevar> Je suis entré dans Debian par le processus du nouveau responsable, mais c'est allé vraiment [22:12]
<SamHocevar> vite, car (je pense) on m'avait déjà demandé de devenir [22:12]
<SamHocevar> développeur Debian auparavant et mon employeur était un vieux briscard de Debian. [22:12]
<SamHocevar> Le processus du nouveau responsable est un très bon test pour l'excellence technique, [22:12]
<SamHocevar> mais je ne crois pas qu'on ait besoin d'excellence en *empaquetage* [22:12]
<SamHocevar> pour devenir développeur : bien que cela soit [22:12]
<SamHocevar> nécessaire pour obtenir le droit de téléchargement, je préférerais que les nouveaux responsables qui [22:12]
<SamHocevar> travaillent dans des équipes d'empaquetage obtiennent le statut de développeur plus tôt, [22:12]
<SamHocevar> et obtiennent les droits de téléchargement lorsqu'ils auraient passé les tests [22:12]
<SamHocevar> de compétences. Debian n'est pas simplement de l'empaquetage. [22:12]
<RaphaelHertzog> Non, je n'ai pas fait le processus du nouveau responsable dans sa forme actuelle. Joey ou Elmo a appelé [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> à la maison, ma mère a répondu et m'a dit : « Ça doit être pour toi, c'est en [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> anglais » (je suis Français). Puis nous avons discuté deux minutes de mes paquets (le [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> gestionnaire de listes de diffusion sympa) et j'ai été accepté peu après. [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> Le processus actuel du nouveau responsable est certainement loin d'être parfait mais il fait ce pourquoi il existe. [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> Il évolue constamment, les responsables de candidatures ont quelques libertés dans la manière de conduire [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> le processus, ils doivent juste s'assurer de prouver que les candidats ont [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> les compétences requises. Et en regardant ceux qui ont été acceptés, c'est [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> le cas ! [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> Cependant, nous effrayons certainement certains contributeurs et c'est dommage. Nous [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> devons avoir l'infrastructure nécessaire pour permettre à chaque contributeur de contribuer [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> à son propre niveau. Nous devons créer et reconnaître des niveaux intermédiaires [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> d'implication. C'est pourquoi j'aime l'idée d'avoir des empaqueteurs qui ne sont pas développeurs Debian [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> mais qui peuvent quand même télécharger leurs propres paquets (après que nous ayons vérifiés qu'ils étaient [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> capables de les maintenir correctement). Il y a des choses comme cela en [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> préparation. J'aime l'initiative debian-community.org qu'Holger [22:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> prépare, etc. [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> Comme indiqué dans mon programme, je suis entré dans Debian avant qu'il n'y ait [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> toute sorte de processus du nouveau responsable. Depuis lors, le processus du nouveau responsable a grandi [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> et est devenu significativement plus complexe. La question n'est pas aussi [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> simple qu'elle n'y paraît, aussi répondrai-je aux deux versions comme je [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> les vois. Je ne pense pas qu'il est important que je ne sois pas passé par [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> le processus du nouveau responsable, car je connais beaucoup de gens qui l'ont passé et j'en [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> ai aidé plusieurs par parrainage, etc. Le processus du nouveau responsable est très [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> pertinent par lui-même – il nous aide à décider à qui nous permettons de [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> télécharger dans notre archive et de fournir des paquets Debian directement à [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> nos utilisateurs sans supervision directe. [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> J'aimerais mettre en avant une vision plus sociale du processus du nouveau responsable. [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> Actuellement, nous avons beaucoup de questions techniques [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> qui sont posées, mais nous ne voyons pas tellement comment [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> les candidats vont bien s'adapter à nous tous. Je vois cela comme [22:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> un problème. [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> J'ai rejoint Debian en envoyant un courriel à new-maintainer disant que j'utilisais [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> Linux depuis quelques années et que j'étais intéressé à la maintenance d'un paquet [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> J'ai fait signé ma clef par un développeur Debian qui passait de temps en temps à mon LUG, et j'ai eu [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> un appel téléphonique de Joey Schulze un samedi matin. Tout ça a pris [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> quelques semaines, et je n'ai vraiment rien fait pour montrer que quoi je suis capable jusqu'à [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> ce que je sois développeur Debian ; dont aider à corriger des bogues critiques pour la publication, essayer de fournir [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> des informations utiles aux débats sur les listes et sur IRC, et maintenir mes paquets. [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> . [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> Il y a beaucoup plus d'intérêt envers Debian maintenant qu'il n'y en avait à l'époque, aussi [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> l'auto-sélection seule n'est probablement pas suffisante ; et au-delà, [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> ce processus d'entraînement plus structuré que nous avons désormais est utile en lui-même. Je pense [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> vraiment qu'il y a beaucoup à dire pour donner à des gens plus de droits plus [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> facilement, cependant, et je travaille actuellement à l'implantation du [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> concept de responsable sur lequel j'avais écrit l'année dernière [0] en utilisant le projet [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> jetring de Joey Hess. [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> . [22:13]
<AnthonyTowns> [0] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/2006/04/12 [22:13]
<don_armstrong> Question suivante : Quel est le plus gros des problèmes que Debian rencontre actuellement ? Ne vous restreignez pas aux problèmes que les responsable du projet Debian peut résoudre. Maintenant que vous les avez identifiés, que peut-il être fait pour les résoudre ? [22:14]
<WouterVerhelst> Je pense que les plus gros problèmes que nous rencontrons actuellement sont en [22:19]
<WouterVerhelst> communication. Nous ne communiquons pas toujours très bien, ce qui conduit à de [22:19]
<WouterVerhelst> mauvaises compréhensions – ou dans les pires situations, à des vendettas personnelles. J'ai [22:19]
<WouterVerhelst> déjà expliqué comment je travaillerai sur ce point dans une question précédente. [22:19]
<AnthonyTowns> Je pense que le plus gros des problèmes de Debian depuis un moment maintenant est de trouver des [22:19]
<AnthonyTowns> façons de faire participer tous les gens qui veulent contribuer à Debian – en particulier [22:19]
<AnthonyTowns> les nouveaux contributeurs, mais aussi les développeurs Debian – et de leur donner des encouragements, [22:19]
<AnthonyTowns> du soutien et l'autorité dont ils ont besoin pour contribuer du mieux qu'ils peuvent. Plus [22:19]
<AnthonyTowns> nous trouverons de manières de favoriser cela, en particulier éviter d'échanger [22:19]
<AnthonyTowns> l'aide à certains contributeurs contre d'autres, meilleurs nous serons. [22:19]
<AigarsMahinovs> Le plus gros des problèmes, à mon humble avis, est que Debian est en train de perdre son effet fantastique à la fois sur les utilisateurs et les développeurs. [22:19]
<AigarsMahinovs> Les quelques idées présentes dans mon programmes sont là pour redonner cet effet fantastique aux développeurs. Des équipes spécialisées plus petites devraient travailler à ramener cet effet fantastique à des groupes spécifiques d'utilisateurs, comme Ubuntu le fait à _nos_ utilisateurs en bureautique. ;) [22:19]
<AigarsMahinovs> Mais sérieusement, il est difficile pour une seule personne de penser à quelque chose qui émerveillera le reste du monde, cela nécessite l'effort d'une équipe. [22:19]
<SamHocevar> Debian est devenu un tas de vieux schnoques qui ne s'amusent [22:19]
<SamHocevar> plus en travaillant pour Debian. Ce n'est pas vrai pour tout le monde, [22:19]
<SamHocevar> bien sûr, mais c'est mon idée en général. [22:19]
<SamHocevar> Nous sommes devenus gros mais nous nous ennuyons, nous avons besoin d'attirer plus [22:19]
<SamHocevar> d'utilisateurs, plus de développeurs (je l'emploie au sens [22:19]
<SamHocevar> général de développeurs ; cela comprend des graphistes, [22:19]
<SamHocevar> des traducteurs, des ergonomes) et au lieu d'insister à faire [22:19]
<SamHocevar> souffrir les nouveaux arrivant autant que nous avons soufferts, leur rendre plus facile [22:19]
<SamHocevar> la possibilité de contribuer. Et nous devons arrêter de frustrer les [22:19]
<SamHocevar> gens qui sont déjà là mais sont empêchés de travailler [22:19]
<SamHocevar> sur ce qu'ils aiment faire : autre chose que nous devons bannir [22:19]
<SamHocevar> c'est l'idée qu'« il vaut mieux ne pas avoir de solution qu'une solution [22:19]
<SamHocevar> imparfaite ». [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> Le plus gros des problèmes que nous rencontrons, je pense, est l'interaction sociale. [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> Nous avons des problèmes avec les discussions enflammées sur les listes, avec diverses équipes ou [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> personnes qui ne communiques plus sur ce qu'elles font, et [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> d'autres qui apparemment passent plus de temps à attaquer et à se moquer des contributions [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> d'autres personnes qu'à vraiment travailler sur Debian. [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> Pour corriger cela, je pense que nous devons être clairs sur ce que [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> nous essayons d'accomplir. Ces personne qui ne travaillent pas avec nous à [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> faire de Debian la meilleurs des distributions possibles et font plutôt perdre [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> du temps à tout le monde par leurs attaques et leurs insultes devraient recevoir un message [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> clair que leurs comportement est inacceptable. Nous pouvons travailler à [22:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> cela ensemble ; le travail du responsable du projet Debian ici est d'insister fortement sur la direction à prendre. [22:19]
<RaphaelHertzog> C'est une question difficile. Nous nous rappelons toujours des problèmes que nous [22:19]
<RaphaelHertzog> avons affrontés, et dans mon cas, il serait difficile de coopérer avec [22:19]
<RaphaelHertzog> l'administration système de Debian. Cependant, ce n'est certainement pas notre problème le plus gros. [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> je pense que Debian manque d'identité propre. Nous avons de solides racines avec notre [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> contrat social et les principes du logiciel libre selon Debian, mais cela fait longtemps que Debian [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> s'est clairement positionné au sein du mouvement du logiciel libre. Ces [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> dernières années, nous n'avons pris qu'une seule fois un décision claire et cela concernait [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> le problèmes de la licence de documentation libre de GNU. [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> Je pense que nous avons besoin de plus discuter et de faire des déclarations publiques [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> sur ce que nos pensons et ce qui nous préoccupe. Je mettrai probablement en avant [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> certainement position pour le projet, mais j'essayerai d'utiliser l'équipe du responsable du projet [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> Debian pour cela au lieu de dépendre de résolutions générales qui se sont montrées pénibles à prendre. [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> C'est une partie du principe de discussion par procuration que je souhaite [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> essayer. Pourquoi pas un document officiel expliquant ce que nous sommes comparés à [22:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> la fondation pour le logiciel libre ou à Ubuntu ? [22:20]
<don_armstrong> Question suivante : Un code de bonne conduite (à la Ubuntu) est-il nécessaire ? Si non, pourquoi pas ? Si oui, pourquoi et que devrait-il contenir ?
fin provisoire de la traduction
Note du traducteur : ce document étant particulièrement long, la traduction est réalisée petit à petit en fonction de mes disponibilités.
[22:21]
<AnthonyTowns> I tried working on a code of conduct by creating the #debian-tech [22:26]
<AnthonyTowns> channel back in 2005, with Steve Langasek, Steve McIntyre and a few [22:26]
<AnthonyTowns> others. That worked okay for a while, particularly for a couple of [22:26]
<AnthonyTowns> scheduled discussions, but hasn't kept alive with active discussion apart [22:26]
<AnthonyTowns> from that. I think there are other things to be tried in this area, [22:26]
<AnthonyTowns> but I'll leave it for other people to try them at this point. [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> I'm in doubt about this. On the one hand, I'm convinced that the "code [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> of conduct" which we have right now is a joke; it may have been useful [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> at the time it was created, but it's horribly outdated today. [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> On the other hand, I feel, as I have before, that actively enforcing a [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> set of social rules does not help anyone; you'll only be creating [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> animosity against the rules and/or the people pointing them out when [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> they are enforced. For a code of conduct to work, people have to /want/ [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> to follow it. [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> . [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> Getting that to happen will require a lot of work; but I don't think [22:26]
<WouterVerhelst> it's impossible. [22:26]
<AigarsMahinovs> A code of conduct should be there, but merely as a recommendation allowing eople to complain about things they do not like, even if those are not in violation of the CoC and at the same time allowing the DPL to allow some things to slide depending on the situation. [22:26]
<AigarsMahinovs> In the end a human factor must be taken in account. By a human. [22:26]
<AigarsMahinovs> The expulsion should however not be achievable via the CoC alone, the current expulsion procedure is much more appropriate. [22:26]
<SamHocevar> I do not believe a code of conduct is needed. General [22:26]
<SamHocevar> guidelines for sure, but a code of conduct means rules, [22:26]
<SamHocevar> and rules mean borderline behaviour, deliberate [22:27]
<SamHocevar> trolling and rule twisting. [22:27]
<SamHocevar> If people quarrel on our mailing-lists, it's because [22:27]
<SamHocevar> they have a reason to. Let's address the reasons instead. [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> We already have the Debian Community Guidelines written by Enrico! [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> https://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/ [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> It's a very interesting document that one should read. I would like [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> to see it promoted during the NM process, and I would like that [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> prospective DD try to abide to those basic rules. [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> It would be useful to have a shorter summary of the DCG to point people [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> to. [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> We have a strong history of non-restrained discussions and it's difficult [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> to change the habits of everybody. But I think that the project is slowly [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> evolving. We already tend to block temporarily the inclusion of NM which [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> are causing troubles. We start learning from the problems, let's continue [22:27]
<RaphaelHertzog> on that way. [22:27]
<SteveMcIntyre> I've suggested that a CoC would be useful in the past, and I [22:27]
<SteveMcIntyre> still believe it would be. Simply getting everybody to agree to [22:27]
<SteveMcIntyre> a reasonable base level of conduct would be a very good start [22:27]
<SteveMcIntyre> on the road to cleaning up the atmosphere on our lists and IRC [22:27]
<SteveMcIntyre> channels. [22:27]
<don_armstrong> Thank you everyone for your attention during the first part of the debate; we'll take a short 5 minute break and start with the second section [22:27]
<don_armstrong> they will ask to be recognized in an out of band channel, and I will say their name [22:32]
<don_armstrong> they will then have 1.5 minutes or 5 lines to respond, whichever is shorter. [22:32]
<don_armstrong> I'll then recognize the next candidate [22:32]
<don_armstrong> some questions will have the opportunity for rebuttals; the candidates will indicate to me that they wish to rebut, and I will allow them to on selected questions [22:33]
<don_armstrong> during this process, the candidates will be +v, however, they will refrain from responding unless they are recognized [22:33]
-!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+vvvv SimonRichter SamHocevar SteveMcIntyre AnthonyTowns] by don_armstrong [22:35]
-!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+vvv WouterVerhelst RaphaelHertzog AigarsMahinovs] by don_armstrong [22:35]
<don_armstrong> Here we go with the first question; (candidates, if I forgot to voice one of you, let me know) [22:35]
<don_armstrong> How do you plan to document your activities as DPL for your fellow developers and the community at large? [22:36]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns [22:36]
<AnthonyTowns> I plan on doing irregular reports to d-d-a as has happened in the past. I think that works fairly well as long as you keep doing new things to write about, or can find other people to encourage to write about the things they're doing. [22:37]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre [22:38]
<SteveMcIntyre> I plan to make regular-ish posts to d-d-a to summarise things that have been going on in Debian, and things that the DPL has been doing - much like (most of) this last year. [22:38]
<SteveMcIntyre> I also expect to blog about things more often, especially the smaller things that don't necessarily deserve the full hit of an announce posting [22:39]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs [22:39]
<AigarsMahinovs> For the short term information I think a published iCal file with everything that is being done or being planned, would be a good thing to try. Blogging about anything, including half-baked ideas, projects and concepts for the mid-term information. And regular status reports on d-d-a once every two month even if nothing significant has been done. [22:39]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [22:40]
<WouterVerhelst> I can only ack what the other candidates have said: I plan to post regularly to d-d-a; I will also, most likely, add a section to my blog for dpl-specific bits that don't warrant a full d-d-a post, but will have to see how that works out [22:41]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [22:42]
<SamHocevar> Every DD, not just the DPL, already has the proper tools to communicate about his/her activities: planet.debian.org for small everyday reports, debian-devel or debian-project for projects and ideas that require discussion, debian-devel-announce for more synthesised activity reports. This is what I plan to use, I do not need additional tools and the fact that previous DPLs may have used them on an irregular basis does not render them ineffective. [22:42]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter [22:42]
<SimonRichter> I think creating even more channels would be a bad thing, we already have too many. I think it would be d-d-a postings for larger and blog entries for smaller stuff for me as well. [22:42]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog [22:43]
<RaphaelHertzog> The DPL board has a public list, so most of the work will be public from [22:43]
<RaphaelHertzog> the beginning. Of course, reports to d-d-a are required. I also like to [22:43]
<RaphaelHertzog> use the wiki for documenting the ideas/projects that I like (see wiki.debian.org/CRMI or wiki.debian.org/CollaborativeMaintenance). [22:43]
<don_armstrong> followup question: Many of you talked about posts to d-d-a. This has often been promised in the past, but these posts tend to die out as the term of the DPL continues. What stratagies do you have to make sure you actually make these posts? [22:44]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre [22:44]
<SteveMcIntyre> I started off reasonably well in the last year doing bits from the 2IC, but lost a little bit of focus towards the end of the year [22:45]
<SteveMcIntyre> It just needs a little more discipline, and I'm happy I can manage that [22:45]
<SteveMcIntyre> if needs be, cron/apt will help :-) [22:45]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog [22:45]
<RaphaelHertzog> It's difficult to remember everything when you want to communicate on everything you do. [22:46]
<RaphaelHertzog> However there's a simple way to do this, any time that you have something interesting to say, put it up on a wiki page. [22:46]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns [22:47]
<RaphaelHertzog> Once there's enough content to make an interesting post, send it. I setup such a page for the QA group already. [22:47]
<RaphaelHertzog> [EOF] [22:47]
<AnthonyTowns> I don't think we've done too badly at keeping reports going throughout the year -- there's been a lull in the last few months of the year as we've focussed more on the etch release, but that's about it. I think the main thing is to move your [22:47]
<AnthonyTowns> focus to new things once something stalls -- it's no fun writing reports like "I've been working on X, but gotten nowhere with it", and it's often much easier to get past roadblocks when you come back later anyway. [22:47]
<AnthonyTowns> [EOF] [22:47]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs [22:47]
<AigarsMahinovs> A technical solution to a social problem - a cron job that *will* send the email every two months, 6 text files with a template saying that nothing has been done and I just need to remember to write something good into those files before they are sent. [22:48]
<AigarsMahinovs> A bit of random would help too, so that I would need to update the files as soon as possible fearing that the mail will go off today. [22:48]
<AigarsMahinovs> [END] [22:48]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [22:48]
<SamHocevar> If I fail to properly report, I shall offer full reimbursement for your annual Debian subscription and a right to spank me at the next DebConf. [22:48]
<SamHocevar> [END] [22:48]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [22:49]
<WouterVerhelst> Keeping people up to date on stuff isn't something I have much issues with; I've been singlehandedly managing the Debian presence at FOSDEM for at least three years now, and that's always worked out. [22:49]
<WouterVerhelst> I'd like to add one word about RaphaelHertzog's suggestion about wiki stuff: I don't think that this can be compared to actually pushing information out through d-d-a; wiki's require people to poll them from time to time [22:49]
<don_armstrong> ok; moving on [22:50]
<don_armstrong> Do you believe Debian would benefit from having all packages in version control? If so, how do you think we could get to that point? [22:51]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [22:51]
<WouterVerhelst> no. It would first spark a flame war about which version control system we're going to use, [22:52]
<WouterVerhelst> then would get people unhappy about the version control system we're actually using, so they'll flame about that, too [22:52]
<WouterVerhelst> I think our current ways work well, and we have snapshot.debian.net for history [22:52]
<WouterVerhelst> perhaps that could be .org'ed, but that's about it [22:52]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs [22:53]
<AigarsMahinovs> Yes, we could do that in 3-4 years, if we design a version control system for our needs, like Linus did (or make the GIT people adapt theirs) [22:53]
<AigarsMahinovs> I would see branching as a major rethink of the maintaining concept. [22:53]
<AigarsMahinovs> [END] [22:54]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [22:54]
<SamHocevar> It would be great, yes, and unlike others so far I don't believe we'd need to decide to use a single version control system for everyone to be happy, we can pretty well work with all the diversity we have on Alioth. (we have been, so far) [22:54]
<SamHocevar> The first step is to have all packages team-maintained to force us using a VCS in the first place. [22:54]
<SamHocevar> [END] [22:54]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog [22:54]
<RaphaelHertzog> We certainly do benefit from good tols to manage our packages and VCS are [22:55]
<RaphaelHertzog> among them. However each DD has its own VCS preference. But that's not a [22:55]
<RaphaelHertzog> real problem... we can support most of them. We're about to announce the support of mercurial on Alioth, so it completes the existing list: arch, bzr, cvs, svn, git [22:55]
<RaphaelHertzog> Now we needs tools to work in the same way with the various VCS... that's part of wiki.debian.org/CollaborativeMaintenance ;-) [22:55]
<RaphaelHertzog> [END] [22:55]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns [22:56]
<AnthonyTowns> I think all our packages _are_ in version control simply by our versioning scheme and source packages. It's not very complicated and there's not a lot of metadata, but it does work. I think we can do that better by making past versions more [22:56]
<AnthonyTowns> readily/reliably available, and implementing the "Wig and Pen" changes to the dpkg source format to make the sources we distribute more compatible with the version control systems maintainers/upstream use. I think the main things we need for [22:56]
<AnthonyTowns> that is support in the archive for the multiple patch format, and support for the "Wig and Pen" format in the various cvs-buildpackage programs. [22:56]
<AnthonyTowns> [END] [22:56]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter [22:56]
<SimonRichter> I agree with Wouter on the flamewar bit; also, it further heightens the learning curve for new maintainers for no real benefit [22:56]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre [22:57]
<SteveMcIntyre> yes, it will help on most fronts [22:57]
<SteveMcIntyre> to be honest, I think we're already working towards version control for a lot of our packages naturally and therefore I don't think we necessarily need to do anything specific to further it [22:58]
<don_armstrong> NB: For info on the wig and pen format: http://lwn.net/Articles/139811/ [22:58]
<don_armstrong> next question: Name your major weak point as a dpl [22:59]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs [22:59]
<AigarsMahinovs> Crazy ideas and not much of a reputation as an actual programmer I would think. [22:59]
<AigarsMahinovs> [END] [23:00]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [23:00]
<SamHocevar> My French humour. But I'm working on that, I already know a few good Irish jokes. [23:00]
<SamHocevar> [END] [23:00]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [23:00]
<WouterVerhelst> I'm terribly bad at figuring out my own weaknesses... but, well, I'm not too stubborn to ack them when pointed out. [23:01]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter [23:01]
<SimonRichter> In trying to see "the big picture" I might miss details. [23:01]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre [23:01]
<SteveMcIntyre> I can be a little too serious sometimes, and when I'm stressed I don't take criticism well - I'm normally enough of a self-critic already... [23:02]
<SteveMcIntyre> [END] [23:02]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns [23:03]
<AnthonyTowns> My biggest difficulties are that my manner can be somewhat abrasive, both accidently and sadly at times deliberately, and that I can forget things that have been brought up while I'm focussed on something else. [23:03]
<AnthonyTowns> [END] [23:03]
<don_armstrong> next question: What do you think of the idea to define a "core" distribution with several other package groups around that (X; Desktop common; KDE; Gnome; ...) in relation to allowing arches to not support certain groups and allowing update during the lifetime of a stable release? [23:04]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter [23:04]
<SimonRichter> that's two questions [23:04]
<SimonRichter> the first is a technical one - if you can show that it works, it can be done [23:05]
<SimonRichter> (Ian Murdock was working on that BTW) [23:05]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre [23:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> I'm not sure on the exact details of how to do it, but I think there is some validity to the first part of this [23:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> for example, at the moment we're building numerical analysis packages on arm - that's ridiculous IMHO [23:07]
<SteveMcIntyre> looking into this would be useful [23:07]
<SteveMcIntyre> I'm not sure what the second half is asking - please expand [23:07]
<SteveMcIntyre> [END] [23:07]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [23:07]
<WouterVerhelst> as an m68k porter, this question hits home. Strange as it might sound to some, I'm not terribly fond of the idea. First, it will complicate our dependencies rather than simplifying them (details by mail, if you want them). Second, compiling 10G worth of software actually is a pretty good way to figure out whether or not your toolchain sucks; and if you've built it, why not upload it anyway? And finally, I've always felt that the decision on [23:07]
<WouterVerhelst> ...what's "useful" should be left to our users, not to us. If someone really, really wants to run KDE on his 68030, who are we to tell them they can't? [23:08]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [23:09]
<SamHocevar> We already have that, more or less. It's called base/standard/etc. vs. optional/extra. [23:09]
<SamHocevar> Having more package groups may not be easy, and technology merges between KDE and GNOME (dbus, many freedesktop standards) render it even more difficult. Is GTK part of GNOME or should it be a separate group because of Xfce? [23:09]
<SamHocevar> As I said earlier, I'd be more in favour of releasing more often (a yearly release) with "desktop" upgrades inbetween that would not touch the core. The specifics would need to be discussed, but KDE or GNOME teams could work in experimental and only upload to unstable if their packages are fit for the inbetween release. [23:10]
<SamHocevar> [END] [23:10]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns [23:10]
<AnthonyTowns> Architectures can already choose to support however much or little they want -- they all seem to choose to support as much as possible, and sometimes a little more. As far as release or security support goes, I'd rather see Debian support [23:10]
<AnthonyTowns> everything that gets packaged, if that's possible. [23:10]
<AnthonyTowns> [END] [23:10]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs [23:10]
<AigarsMahinovs> Theoretically it could be done outside Debian stable update process if we would he the code to allow outside repositories to be added to the buildd queue. So, a group of DDs should be able to create a Debian-woody-Gnome-updates repository. But I would not agree to let some arch release without KDE for example. That would be a path to making such arch even more irrelevant. [END] [23:10]
<AigarsMahinovs> s/he the code/have the code/ [23:11]
<don_armstrong> moving right along to the next question [23:11]
<don_armstrong> actually, RaphaelHertzog [23:12]
<RaphaelHertzog> There's too much in this question. I really would like us to find a way to [23:12]
<RaphaelHertzog> provide some updates for kernels/Xorg once during the stable lifetime. [23:12]
<RaphaelHertzog> I'm not sure that it needs a split in the archive however. [23:12]
<RaphaelHertzog> It's a difficult topic, but we will probably discuss it when we'll discuss release management, because it could be a way to hit the release date... [23:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> [END] [23:13]
<don_armstrong> now really moving to the next question [23:13]
<don_armstrong> Name something, other than releases, that you think a specific other distribution does better than Debian. How could we fix that? [23:13]
<don_armstrong> (After this question, I'm going to ask a few directed questions; I'll give the candidates 2 minutes to respond so they can actually read the question) [23:14]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [23:14]
<SamHocevar> Ubuntu is far better than us at doing transitions. We could fix this by having "transition strike teams" who NMU all late packages faster than we currently do. [23:15]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [23:15]
<SamHocevar> Gentoo is far better at including new ports (OS X, for instance). We could fix this by lowering the requirements for new ports, and only decide later if the arch can be released [23:15]
<SamHocevar> [END] [23:15]
<WouterVerhelst> Ubuntu is doing pretty well in getting mindshare currently, mainly because it's so slick and shiny (in some respects). I think we'll have caught up there by the time etch releases; I recently did an installation of an etch machine, which blew me away in terms of what's changed since sarge. [23:15]
<WouterVerhelst> But other than that, I have always felt that Debian is a great distribution, and the best in most ways. Otherwise, I wouldn't have stuck around :) [23:16]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns [23:17]
<AnthonyTowns> Working Live CDs for Debian instead of having to used derived distros. I think we'll have this for etch, which just means we need to promote them, and keep them working. [END] [23:17]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs [23:17]
<AigarsMahinovs> Ubuntu is nice at many things, I think we should assimilate them by making it possible to do what they are doing in a way that is inside Debian for some definitions of "inside". Gentoo has the nice ability of adjusting you systems vital parameters (mostly compilation settings) and feel great if it works. It should be possible to make a way to have local packages that are autocompilled forks of the main tree. [23:18]
<AigarsMahinovs> [END] [23:18]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre [23:18]
<SteveMcIntyre> Ubuntu have done a very good job of getting things like laptop support working [23:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> by pushing changes through at all levels that need them in a short-ish interval [23:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> working together more on that kind of goal should be possible, but we need to agree to do that [23:20]
<SteveMcIntyre> [END] [23:20]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog [23:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> Everybody said the most obvious already. For my part, what I like in [23:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> Ubuntu is the process of selection of goals for the next release and how [23:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> they document their projects in the wiki. It really helps getting new [23:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> people involved and for everyone to see what they can expect from the next [23:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> release. [23:20]
<RaphaelHertzog> [END] [23:20]
<don_armstrong> we'll have a round of rebuttals, then I'll ask directed questions [23:20]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst [23:20]
<WouterVerhelst> Sam Hocevar mentioned something about Gentoo, that they do pretty well in ports. I don't think that's right; they do have support in their systems for many ports, [23:21]
<WouterVerhelst> but when I tried out a non-standard port once (i.e., not ppc or i386 or some such), I found that most packages couldn't be installed because they were 'masked' [23:22]
<WouterVerhelst> we're doing much better in that respect [23:22]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar [23:22]
<SamHocevar> I mostly agree with Wouter. [23:23]
<SamHocevar> But that's a problem with Gentoo's QA; the fact that our QA is better should not hinder the fact that our ports do not get proper support early enough. [23:23]
<SamHocevar> [END] [23:23]
<don_armstrong> moving along to directed questions; the candidates will have two minutes to respond. [23:23]
<don_armstrong> Wouter: You mentioned meetings to help team building in your platform: Which teams do you think should meet first? How do you propose to organize the meetings? [23:24]
<WouterVerhelst> That will depend on the teams themselves. I'm not going to shove meetings down people's throats if they don't want them. I will only encourage people to hold them, and help them when they want to hold one. [23:25]
<WouterVerhelst> hence, I can't know which team will be the first to hold a meeting [23:25]
<don_armstrong> Aigars: You mentioned continuing education of developers in your platform: How do you propose to implement that? What have you done so far towards implementing it? [23:25]
<AigarsMahinovs> I have not done anything about it as I am not in position to do that. On the contrary, I myself feel that I would need to refresh on current best practises of Debian development. [23:27]
<don_armstrong> Sam: I noticed that you mentioned that you thought the BTS was ugly, but I don't see any bugs filed by you against either bugs.debian.org or debbugs. What have you done so far to communicate and/or fix some of the other problems that you've identified in Debian? [23:28]
<SamHocevar> I have grown pretty afraid of the "show the code or shut up" argument. [23:28]
<SamHocevar> I don't mean to say that my suggestions would be met with such responses, though, but I thought I'd rather start working on a PoC before complaining [23:29]
<SamHocevar> I have already started working on lintian.d.o improvements [23:29]
<SamHocevar> and will continue with the BTS once finished with lintian. [23:30]
<SamHocevar> [END] [23:30]
<don_armstrong> Steve: Communication was a common theme in your platform; over the past 12 months when you were 2IC, what were you able to do to help improve communication in Debian? [23:30]
<SteveMcIntyre> I tried to get involved in various teams, so I could help them talk with the rest of the project (not as much as I'd hoped, unfortunately) [23:31]
<SteveMcIntyre> I tried to point out some of the discussions etc going on in the 2IC posts [23:31]
<SteveMcIntyre> mediation work [23:32]
<don_armstrong> Anthony: What was your biggest triumph over the past 12 months? Your biggest mistake? [23:32]
<AnthonyTowns> the thing that pleased me the most was all the things getting freed -- the new GFDL drafts, the new creative commons drafts, and Sun's announcemnet of its intention to GPL Java (and the hints that the GPLv3 will be considered for OpenSolaris for that matter) [23:34]
<don_armstrong> Simon: Could you pick out one of the problems you identified in your platform and describe how you'd attempt to solve it? [23:34]
<AnthonyTowns> (gak, time's up already? i'll reply on list) [23:35]
<SimonRichter> there is only one problem [23:36]
<SimonRichter> subgroups are fighting each other [23:36]
<SimonRichter> any attempt at solving Debian's problems must remove the incentive to fight [23:36]
<don_armstrong> Raphael: What will differentiate your DPL Board from the previous attempts that we've had at them? [23:36]
<RaphaelHertzog> It will have the real DPL powers. [23:37]
<RaphaelHertzog> It won't be a simple board of DPL advisers. [23:37]
<RaphaelHertzog> They'll have to play an active role, making propositions, discussing them and deciding together. [23:38]
<RaphaelHertzog> They will have access to the information that the DPL has via the leader@d.o alias. [23:39]
<don_armstrong> ok; thanks everyone for your responses. We're going to take a 5 minute break here and start up with the cage match in 5. [23:39]
<don_armstrong> for this part the candidates are free to ask eachother questions, as am I; I'll attempt to relay questions asked in real time from the audience to the candidates as well as asking some of the followup questions that didn't get a chance to be answered [23:42]
<don_armstrong> ok; here we go! [23:45]
<don_armstrong> Approximately how much of your time per week will you be able to spend on DPL related tasks? [23:45]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter: you mentioned incentive to fight; how would you remove it? [23:45]
<RaphaelHertzog> It really depends on my workload, I can spend a whole week doing Debian only stuff (I did that during the python transition) [23:45]
<WouterVerhelst> That first question's been asked on -vote already, I believe [23:46]
<SimonRichter> about four to five hours, travelling time not counted as I generally travel by train which lets me work on other things [23:46]
<SteveMcIntyre> I expect to be able ot spend quite a lot of time on DPL work [23:46]
<SamHocevar> I think this was already asked on -vote; I'd say 3-4 hours a day, more in the weekends, and I can afford to work less if necessary [23:46]
<WouterVerhelst> I'm self-employed currently, which basically means I mostly get to choose my own time schedule :) [23:46]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: it'll vary wildly, but generally be "as much as it takes". i'm hoping to have more time for other things this year, and i'm hoping more assistant dpls, along with actually knowing what being dpl is like, will help with that [23:46]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: what obsticals did you encounter trying to make things happen? [23:46]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: how could they have been overcome? [23:46]
<AnthonyTowns> SamHocevar: what do you believe needs to be done to have transition teams work? There are very few technical restrictions on uploading, and we've already had discussions about this sort of issue in the past. So what more needs to happen for us to have, eg, a team of people doing NMUs to fix kfreebsd build issues? (Cf https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/07/msg00240.html) [23:47]
<SteveMcIntyre> I already spend a lot of time on Debian, and between squeezing that and optionally getting more time released from work I can do a day or two each week on average, obviously squashed together more as demands [23:47]
<WouterVerhelst> I usually spend quite a number of hours per day on Debian-related stuff [23:47]
<SimonRichter> the most important bit is not exactly a DPL task: reading email and having an overview of what is happening; I don't count that into the time required either) [23:47]
<don_armstrong> In what ways do you think Debian can use its resources more effective? [23:47]
<SimonRichter> (as already written on -discuss) to a certain extent, the lack of communication between teams makes goals of different teams appear conflicting; the prime example is the mail asking for newer GNOME to be pushed into etch. [23:47]
<SimonRichter> des, I think the important bit will be identifying these situations and getting a consensus on the best technical solution that is compatible with both team's goals [23:47]
<SteveMcIntyre> Debian's best resources are its people [23:47]
<SamHocevar> AnthonyTowns: we need consensus that these teams are legitimate; we currently rely on LowThresholdNMU to guess whether a maintainer is "NMU-friendly", and we shouldn't have to [23:47]
<WouterVerhelst> SteveMcIntyre: couldn't agree more [23:48]
<don_armstrong> Communications break down, and conflicts can arise. What do you plan to do as DPL to handle the (almost) inevitable conflicts? [23:48]
<SteveMcIntyre> we need to make it easier for people to work together to get things done, with less of the sniping that currently causes people to waste time, or at worst leave [23:48]
<SamHocevar> for instance the kfreebsd-i386 porters would gain legitimacy by having their port accepted in the archive, they have unanswered bugs that are hundreds of days old [23:48]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: how can we reduce the sniping? [23:48]
<AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: now we only need to figure out 1) how can we get more people and 2) how to use them in the most effective fashion [23:48]
<SteveMcIntyre> we can reduce the sniping as part of a combined effort to raise the quality of our communications [23:49]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: mostly arguments on the lists, and not being sure i had the moral authority to do things. one example where interminable debate was "overcome" was the sun-java-in-non-free issue, which, after help from Sun in clarifying their issues, it was passed on to SPI's lawyer for an opinion [23:49]
<RaphaelHertzog> If you get people busy with interesting project, they' don't have the time to fight. [23:49]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs: how do you think we can get more people? [23:49]
<SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, indeed, these are related [23:49]
<WouterVerhelst> SamHocevar: I don't think you get legitimacy simply by getting a port in the archive [23:49]
<SteveMcIntyre> as I said earlier, a reasonable minimum base code of conduct will help here [23:49]
<WouterVerhelst> 68k is in the archive too, and has similar problems to kfreebsd-i386 in some regards (obviously not all, since it's still Linux) [23:49]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar: what do you feel is hindering them from entering the archive? [23:49]
<SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, and I disagree on that one [23:49]
<WouterVerhelst> +m [23:49]
<SamHocevar> WouterVerhelst: I think it helps a lot; just because it's not enough doesn't mean it's not worth it [23:49]
<SteveMcIntyre> make it more obvious that most of us do *not* find the sniping funny, or useful for example [23:49]
<RaphaelHertzog> Thus the solution is to help people realize their project... why discuss endlessly if kfreebsd-i386 is worth it when we can add it to the archive and have the numerous members happy to do even more good work ? [23:50]
<AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: Ubuntu gets loads of users because of its wow factor. Some of those are bound to become developers. To get more deelopers we need to get more users join the free software community overal and more developers to preffer developing in Debian. [23:50]
<SteveMcIntyre> and also start working out exactly what common goals we really have as a project [23:50]
<WouterVerhelst> SamHocevar: I didn't say we shouldn't put kfreebsd in the archive nor that it wouldn't be worth it; only that it doesn't affect the port's legitimacy [23:50]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: what needs to be done to darft the code of conduct? [23:50]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: the common "it's not perfect yet so we're better without it" belief that we often use as an excuse for the status quo [23:50]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar: how do you plan on overcomming that? [23:50]
<SamHocevar> WouterVerhelst: on that precise point I disagree [23:51]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: we've two major issues with using resources -- keeping track of what's available and what's needed (eg hardware donations, bandwidth/hosting donations, and what people actually need machines to help them with) and feeling authorised to actually use them (eg, i didn't feel comfortable spending debian money to fly myself places to promote debian, so i ended up only authorising smaller flights for toher people) [23:51]
<don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs: how should we go about getting more developers involved in Debian and keeping them once they're here? [23:51]
<RaphaelHertzog> Of couse, we must take care of problems, but that's something that are solved in a continual basis, not in a "get it right straight the first time" [23:51]
<SteveMcIntyre> if needs be, encourage those that do not agree with those goals to fit in better or (if necessary) leave and work on their own goals separately rather than dragging Debian along [23:51]
<RaphaelHertzog> on this I agree with sam [23:51]
<SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, a Code of Conduct is not going to improve communications, rather degrade them by being waved in the faces of people instead of civilly addressing them, [23:51]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: what should be changed to help us keep track of what is available and what is needed? [23:51]
<WouterVerhelst> RaphaelHertzog: what do you mean with "this"? :) [23:51]
<don_armstrong> Debian receives a generous $10 million dollar donation; what do we spend it on? [23:52]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: by making it more difficult for people in position of power to refuse contributions, namely by having their teams grow with "younger" developers less prone to thinking like that [23:52]
<SteveMcIntyre> SimonRichter: no, I disagree; coming up with an agreed *basic* code will help; consider it as encouragement to do the right thing rather than as a stick to beat people woth [23:52]
<SteveMcIntyre> s/woth/with/ [23:52]
<RaphaelHertzog> WouterVerhelst: the fact that we should start first and fix continuously instead of doing nothing [23:52]
<WouterVerhelst> SimonRichter: having an informal code of conduct as a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule will certainly help [23:52]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar: how will the teams be forced to grow or avoid refusing contributions? [23:52]
<SteveMcIntyre> to draft a code, we will need discussion and consensus; that's (admittedly) not going to be easy [23:52]
<AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: Debian need to _again_ become the kind of distro and the kind of community that one would be cool to be part of. Some things taht IMHO could achieve that have been raised here and in my platform, but much more is needed. [23:52]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: i think (hope) an rt instance will help a little; ultimately we'll need someone willing to volunteer time to keep track of it. kalle kivemaa as debian auditor's been trying to work out what funds are held in debian's name around the world for a few months now, eg -- but it's a hard job [23:52]
<SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, I agree; the hard part is how to avoid it being used as a stick [23:53]
<SteveMcIntyre> but I believe/hope that the vast majority of DDs are sensible people who will not object to such a discussion [23:53]
<WouterVerhelst> AigarsMahinovs: how do you view that Debian could lead in cleaning up $HOME? [23:53]
<WouterVerhelst> as opposed to, say, freedesktop.org? [23:53]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre, WouterVerhelst, SimonRichter: what should be done about violations of the code of conduct? [23:53]
<SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: same Q from me [23:53]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: for delegated teams, the DPL has the power to delegate new persons; for other teams I'd like to have the NM process accept people faster if they are in a team [23:53]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: to start with, get people to buy in so that we shouldn't get there [23:54]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: and beyond that? [23:54]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: why haven't you responded to my question on -vote ? :-) [23:54]
<SteveMcIntyre> if we do have violations, then we will need to agree on consequences [23:54]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I mostly see a code of conduct as a guideline. When people often don't follow it, that means it sucks [23:54]
<SimonRichter> violations of the CoC must be dealt with on an individual basis [23:54]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: right now, i would suggest that it not be given to debian directly, but instead spent elsewhere -- eg on a "summer of code" like program that might include debian, or on upstream development, or to employ debian developers, or similar. [23:54]
<SteveMcIntyre> that's something where I don't have a magic answer, I want to get discussion going [23:54]
<WouterVerhelst> SteveMcIntyre: +1 from me :) [23:54]
<SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: I haven't yet, I'm still drafting my answers to you and to Ron [23:55]
<AigarsMahinovs> WouterVerhelst: Debian is the only organisation that has enough coverage over the whole range of the free software projects to produce and implement the principles and the code required for the transition. We would need to work with FD.org to make sure that what we do become the standard, but I believe that Debian is the only place where this standard could actually be implemented. [23:55]
<SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, I think people would have less of a problem with dunc-tank if it wasn't perceived as pushing an own agenda [23:55]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: is that because of our reticence to spend money? or is it that it could just be better spent elsewhere? [23:55]
<SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: it's difficult for me to explain why I'm not in favour of a board that I agreed to join if it were to be created [23:55]
<WouterVerhelst> AigarsMahinovs: how are you going to properly deal with the massive amounts of patches that would be required for, say, KDE to implement that? [23:55]
<SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, for example, I can see that having a group of people coordinate funding development work is a good thing [23:56]
<don_armstrong> what, in all of your opinion, are the weak points of Debian? [23:56]
<SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: and how do you expect to convince upstreams to take patches if they don't care about FD ideas? [23:56]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: should anything be done about the rare failures? If so, what? [23:56]
<SamHocevar> Debian has too much inertia [23:56]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: we don't have enough focus. [23:57]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: we're probably getting too big [23:57]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: eh, failures of the code of conduct, you mean? [23:57]
<RaphaelHertzog> all of the above at the same time [23:57]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: yes [23:57]
<SteveMcIntyre> we're spending too much time arguing and bike-shedding rather than getting real work done in a lot of cases [23:57]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: we don't have the acocunting procedures in place to cope with that much money -- the spi treasurer would have a heart attack for one thing; second, i think we'd have a very hard time actually working out how to spend the money; at present we don't have good procedures to spend money outside the US generally [23:57]
<don_armstrong> SamHocevar, WouterVerhelst, SteveMcIntyre, RaphaelHertzog: what (if anything) can be done to deal with that? [23:57]
<AigarsMahinovs> WouterVerhelst: some technical solutions have been proposed where a temporal measure is put in place while not all patches are implemented. I myself do not now of a technical feasibility of, for example, an LD_PRELOAD library doing this, but smarter coders than me could no doubt figure that one out. [23:57]
<SteveMcIntyre> it's also too easy to miss the sheer amount of good work that is happening quietly every day, because it's lost in the noise [23:58]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: is there any good way to bring the good work forward? [23:58]
<AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: we do already something similar towards FHS compliance, why not extend the same toward the home folder? [23:58]
<SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, plus, dealing with that as a non-profit is difficult [23:58]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: work on stopping the flamewars, for one [23:58]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: more people and more work done; my platform has a lot about that [23:58]
<SteveMcIntyre> also push more of the good work, advertise it [23:58]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: we should first work towards actually making it rare, by documenting what people actually expect rather than some ideal utopian perfect world we'd like to live in. After that, I expect the problem will mostly solve itself [23:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> the Debian Package of the Day blog is wonderful for that, for example [23:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> exactly, more work done, and more visibility to that work [23:59]
<WouterVerhelst> this will take a long time, though, I'm not even sure a year is enough [23:59]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: weak points of debian? we're trying large scale, cross-cultural, decentralised, volunteer development. that's not something that's been done before in any field ttbomk, so we're facing problems that people haven't solved before, and that's difficult. [23:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> but I want everybody motivated given a chance, [23:59]
<SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: the FHS has mostly been working to get people to use existing locations AFAICS [23:59]
<RaphaelHertzog> and the most motivated are the DPL candidates [23:59]
<SamHocevar> I cannot magically solve the inertia problem; if Debian as a whole doesn't want to change, then it won't, we need enough people who want it to change [23:59]
--- Day changed Sun Mar 11 2007
<RaphaelHertzog> that's why several of them are in the DPL board, they have energy, and I want them to continue on that track [00:00]
<SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: the problem is that no such locations have ever been agreed in home-dirs [00:00]
<don_armstrong> If you could name one self-contained thing about Debian that you want to change, and the code to implement that change would just magically appear, what would you name? [00:00]
<SteveMcIntyre> we then get problems in the places where people may want to use Debian alongside other distros/other Unixes using common home dirs [00:00]
<SteveMcIntyre> that's a real problem... [00:00]
<AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: the same can be said about moving configuration files into more proper places inside user home folders, and once Debian and FD.org agrees on that, I feel that it would have similar weight as the FHS. [00:00]
<RaphaelHertzog> the ability to handle several profiles in our central LDAP [00:00]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: if it would magically appear? I'd love fixes for all our bugs to magically appear [00:01]
<RaphaelHertzog> so that we could have DD, translators, packagers [00:01]
<RaphaelHertzog> each with their own rights [00:01]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: heh. one thing. ;-) [00:01]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog: what is the first step (in your opinion) towards making that happen? [00:01]
<SamHocevar> I must say I agree with RaphaelHertzog: different (incremental?) developers' rights is the way to go [00:01]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: keyring management, it already happened exactly like that :D [00:01]
<RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: for me, learning how to change a LDAP schema :-) [00:02]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: I'd love to get the NM thing working better, with an agreed idea of how we should treat maintainers, translators, documentation writers etc [00:02]
<don_armstrong> Comming back to communication: what can be done to work around communication breakdowns? [00:02]
* SteveMcIntyre snaps RaphaelHertzog [00:02]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I'd love for Debian to be a place where the boundaries of technology are pushed forward. But that's future dreaming, and I don't think it's relevant in a DPL environment. Most responsibilities for the DPL, as I see it, do not involve much actual coding anyway [00:02]
<RaphaelHertzog> but then we have to discuss this with many teams (ftp-masters, NM) [00:02]
<SimonRichter> SamHocevar, I think the NM process is a bit of a group building process; the initiation ritual (NM) certainly helps people in identifying with Debian. [00:02]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: if the magically appearing code was a totally hypothetical question, I'd say every package in the same VCS [00:03]
<SimonRichter> SamHocevar, so I'm not sure there should be too many intermediate steps [00:03]
<AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: it could also help to call in some key developers from other distributions, so that the new FHS /home extension can truly become a universal and commony accepted standard that Debian can then put into the policy and start implementing and pushing upstream. [00:03]
<SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: maybe, yes; it's a *BIG* job... :-) [00:03]
<AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: I fully agree with that [00:03]
<SimonRichter> re: weak points of Debian: we feel a need to compete with other distributions rather than doing what is best [00:03]
<SamHocevar> SimonRichter: I believe one should not wait T&S to become a developer; T&S should only be required for upload rights [00:03]
<SimonRichter> SamHocevar, T&S is the shortest part of NM [00:04]
* SteveMcIntyre nods SamHocevar to a certain extent [00:04]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter: can you underline an example where we've followed other distributions to compete instead of doing what is best? [00:04]
<SamHocevar> SimonRichter: one (or several, maybe three) advocate, a PGP signature, a commitment to free software, and you're in [00:04]
<SteveMcIntyre> but rather than no T&S, maybe a different/more targeted equivalent [00:04]
<SamHocevar> SimonRichter: what do you mean is the longest part? DAM approval? [00:04]
<SimonRichter> don_armstrong, the discussion of more frequent releases cropping up all the time [00:05]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: some history of contribution is still required [00:05]
<AnthonyTowns> *: As DPL you're considered a representative of Debian; beyond replying to leader@debian.org email, what would you plan to do in that role? Do you think it's a good idea to encourage other people to be viewed as representatives of Debian, and if so, how? [00:05]
<don_armstrong> getting back to the $10M donation question, which only Anthony answered: if a sizeable donation was made to Debian, how would you spend it? [00:05]
<WouterVerhelst> SamHocevar: you're forgetting P&P, which is what most NM's spend most time in (for the parts they are part of the delays, at least) [00:05]
<RaphaelHertzog> otherwise you have the "I want a @d.o email" syndrom [00:05]
<SimonRichter> SamHocevar, P&P [00:05]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: to work around communications breakdowns is difficult [00:05]
<SteveMcIntyre> ideally we don't want to get there in the first place [00:06]
<SamHocevar> ok, don't you believe P&P could be split into P (required to be a DD) and P (required to get upload rights)? [00:06]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: any ideas on how to do it, though? [00:06]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I've missed that one, I think. If $10M was offered, I'd refuse it. Debian does not need that amount of money, and deciding what to do with it could well mean its death due to the flame wars. [00:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> but when things _do_ fail, then there are ways to work [00:06]
<SteveMcIntyre> moderation to try and get the parties talking sensibly again [00:06]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: any ideas on how to identify those sorts of problems earlier on and stop them? [00:06]
<AigarsMahinovs> we could just give the $10M to Ubuntu :) [00:06]
<SamHocevar> does anyone *really* believe the "I want a @d.o email" syndrom is real and commonplace? I for one have never used my Debian address in 7 years [00:07]
<don_armstrong> (nb: please feel free to ask eachother questions too; I'm just a facilitator here) [00:07]
<SteveMcIntyre> work to resolve whatever underlying problems are actually causing the breakdown [00:07]
<SimonRichter> don_armstrong, I think it could be used for travelling costs to build teams; I do see the danger of becoming dependent on that sort of thing though [00:07]
<SteveMcIntyre> and in some cases we maybe just have to acknowledge that some people just won't get on [00:07]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: it's not common place, but it happens [00:07]
<SteveMcIntyre> in those situations, we'll have to work out reasonable ways to split them up [00:07]
<don_armstrong> In what ways do you think Debian can use its resources more effectively? [00:08]
<don_armstrong> (I asked it before, but lets come back to it) [00:08]
<SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: what would you do if someone in your DPL board grew uninterested or overwhelmed? leave the seat vacant? appoint someone else? [00:08]
<SteveMcIntyre> comms is something that needs to be worked on on a per-case basis [00:08]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: who should be responsible for them? [00:08]
<WouterVerhelst> for clarity, I obviously won't refuse all donations, and I will use money on meetings, which is where I think most of our money should go. But 10M is just way too much [00:08]
<AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: it is real. Many teenage developers have the need for recognition and getting the DD status and the @d.o email to show that off is a great way to get recognition. [00:09]
<SteveMcIntyre> SamHocevar: yes, I've spoken to many people that seem to want to get into Debian "because it's cool" [00:09]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: discuss with him to see, if it's going to last, if he goes completely MIA, we can resort to phone to have some news [00:09]
<SteveMcIntyre> and they'd like the d.o email [00:09]
<SteveMcIntyre> I think it's a good thing to educate those people so they understand better, or even to put them off altogether if necessary [00:09]
<don_armstrong> What do you expect to accomplish (if elected) in the first three months of office? [00:09]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: then I would have no problem appointing someone else after discussing with the rest of the board [00:09]
<RaphaelHertzog> but I also expect to have different profiles [00:10]
<AnthonyTowns> RaphaelHertzog: if you win by a landslide, but sam and steve come dead last, even after NOTA, will you uninvite them from the dpl board? [00:10]
<RaphaelHertzog> some will more likely make proposals whiler other will mainly comment [00:10]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: in the first 3 months of office, I expect to deliver enough sponsorship money to Debconf to make it work [00:10]
<SteveMcIntyre> (primarily) [00:10]
<SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: did you consider having a woman in your board? [00:10]
<RaphaelHertzog> AnthonyTowns: no, they're still only 2 out of 10 [00:10]
<SteveMcIntyre> I also want to get some more of the DAM/DKR/DSA split done that AJ and I have been working on lately [00:10]
<SteveMcIntyre> beyond that, anything's a bonus to be honest [00:11]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: in the first three months, not much. I expect to get worked in during the first month up to the first month and a half, and expect to get my first results a few weeks or months later [00:11]
<don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: can you go into any detail on that split? [00:11]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: lets say the first 6 months then [00:11]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: a little; we're working on ways to help devolve the keyring maintenance work, as mentioned on -project recently [00:11]
<SamHocevar> okay, I'll take your word for it that people actually /do/ want an @d.o address for fame. I'll stick that with the upload rights in my previous comments [00:11]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: yes but I have too few contacts with them and none candidated spontaneously [00:11]
<SteveMcIntyre> that should allow people to do the keyring-maint job without needing to be root@ [00:12]
<SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: you might want to lurk on #debian-women then [00:12]
<WouterVerhelst> I'm hoping to get the transparency of the project up, and do hope to see the first results of changing culture at that point, too. Other than that, I'm not actually planning to make many radical changes, so... [00:12]
<SteveMcIntyre> ditto, DAM should not need root powers - DAM should talk to to DKR and DSA to control exactly who is a DD [00:12]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: I'm in that channel, but well, IRC discussion don't mean much wrt Debian's involvment [00:13]
<SteveMcIntyre> and then DSA should not need to be a gateway, but should be simply popping the changes off the queue as they're needed [00:13]
<WouterVerhelst> RaphaelHertzog: there's a mailinglist, too :) [00:13]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: by the first six months, i'd like to have some of the assisting dpls actively and visibly working on a project of their own choosing -- something of the scale of the problems people have described in the past as "i haven't done that because i'm not dpl" [00:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> and some women that I appreciated are not (yet) DD too (Meike Reichle for example) [00:13]
<RaphaelHertzog> s/appreciated/appreciate/ [00:13]
<SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: but IRC discussions surely are a huge part of Debian's communication channels, aren't they? [00:13]
<don_armstrong> What are the major problems you've all identified in your platforms that you actually have to be DPL to perform? [00:14]
<AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: not for casual DDs [00:14]
<SteveMcIntyre> I'm curious what the other candidates think - why have we not had a female DPL candidate yet? [00:14]
<RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: yes they are, but you don't to follow 20 channels and 20 lists easily [00:14]
<RaphaelHertzog> I watch #alioth closely, but not #debian-women [00:14]
<WouterVerhelst> to change a culture, you need to be someone that'll be listened to, rather than just one person among a mass of equals. [00:15]
<SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: but for many involved DDs, and also many involved NMs, it is [00:15]
<AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: we haven't had a spanish or an asian candidate either ttbomk; i think it's mostly just demographics [00:15]
<WouterVerhelst> I don't think I'll be able to do much in that regard without having at least some moral authority which an election could get me. [00:15]
<don_armstrong> Will any of you you push to change any of the fundamental documents of Debian? [00:15]
<don_armstrong> (perhaps by adding a code of conduct to them, etc?) [00:15]
<RaphaelHertzog> WouterVerhelst: on this part, I really disagree with you [00:15]
<RaphaelHertzog> we had this discussion on -vote already [00:16]
<SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: especially for debian-women, which aims at making Debian more accessible to a part of the population; IRC definitely helps make it more accessible [00:16]
<AnthonyTowns> WouterVerhelst: if you come second, will you feel like you have that moral authority? if you are/aren't an assistant dpl or dpl board member, will that have any effect? [00:16]
<RaphaelHertzog> you can prepare the project for a future direction that you like [00:16]
<RaphaelHertzog> and if that direction is the easiest way to go forward, the project is likely to follow it [00:16]
<don_armstrong> (15 minutes left) [00:16]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: I think the communications improvements really need the DPL mandate behind them to get things moving [00:16]
<WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: if I end up second, and the DPL-elect agrees with me, then I probably will have that moral authority, yes [00:16]
<RaphaelHertzog> that's what I did with Alioth and the PTS [00:16]
<AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: I am not sure how that works. I for one feel mailing lists to be far more intimidating then mailing lists. [00:16]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: I'd like to clarify the "We won't hide problems" in our SC to make it clean that it's not only about bugs in our software [00:16]
<SteveMcIntyre> otherwise, many of my ideas can be done by anyone [00:17]
<AnthonyTowns> WouterVerhelst: if you end up last, but the dpl-elect agrees with you? [00:17]
<WouterVerhelst> Also, being assistant DPL or board member might help. [00:17]
<SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: you mean IRC I guess, but I see your point [00:17]
<SteveMcIntyre> the main difference is that if elected I expect to be able to devote more time to them [00:17]
<don_armstrong> How willing are you all to make controversial decisions? [00:17]
<WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: if I end up last (that is, below NOTA, or in close proximity to it), then it's clear that most of the project does not want me to change Debian's culture. Whether the DPL-elect agrees with me doesn't matter at that point, because you can't change a culture if the people making up that culture don't want it changed. [00:18]
<SteveMcIntyre> I don't expect at *this* point to be making any changes to any of the fundamental docs, no [00:18]
<SamHocevar> for instance, developers who wish to leave the project are supposed to do it publicly (as per our Constitution), but they always do it on -private; same for [VAC] messages (I understand there's a privacy issue here, but one should be made aware that a developer is going to be away for a while) [00:18]
<SteveMcIntyre> but that doesn't mean it won't happen - I have no plans, but things can change [00:18]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I think controversy should be avoided if/when possible; but in some cases, there's no choice and you *have* to make a controversial decision. [00:19]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: what can be done to reduce the controversy? [00:19]
<RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: I'm not willing to make controversial decisions until I'm convinced that they are the only way forward [00:19]
<SteveMcIntyre> I'm quite prepared to make controversial decisions, but only if they're necessary and (imo) correct [00:19]
<AnthonyTowns> I don't think controversy should be a deciding factor. Often it's possible to resolve disagreements with some sort of compromise, or a more thorough understanding/explanation of the idea. I don't think loudly disagreeing is a good way to contribute in and of itself though -- better to talk quietly and have good reasons, and if you lose the debate sit quietly and wait until you can say "I told you so" later, imo. [00:19]
<AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: I assume that vacation field in LDAP is more useful for that - DDs see the reason, non-DDs only see that a developer is away [00:20]
<don_armstrong> (I suppose it depends on the decision, but how in general would you act to reduce it?) [00:20]
<SteveMcIntyre> on most decisions, we're better off getting consensus, but sometime it's difficult to get everybody to agree [00:20]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: recent history shows that controversial decisions are a risky move for the DPL; I hope that the election will act as a confirmation that the DPL's platform was consensual [00:20]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: talk to those people whose opinion makes it a controversial (i.e., who oppose to your idea), and figure out what they'd prefer to see; with that information, try to work towards consensus [00:20]
* SteveMcIntyre nods WouterVerhelst [00:20]
<SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: then there is no reason not to mail -devel that one's going to be away, is there? (as far as I remember I have always sent my VAC messages to -devel) [00:20]
<don_armstrong> Ask yourself and answer a question that you wish I'd asked you. [00:21]
<RaphaelHertzog> Since consensus is the best, I want to make it the norm again, and I want to prove with the board, that it's still possible on many topics. [00:21]
<WouterVerhelst> if consensus turns out to be impossible, then either don't force the change through (if possible), or be unhappy at having to be controversial :) [00:21]
<SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: asking "is developer X away" is very different from being notified that developer X is away [00:21]
<AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: I am willing to make contraversial decisions as long as they are consistent with my pre-election platform - as in I already have the mandate. In other cases I would also go forward and decide things that can be reversed later. [00:21]
<don_armstrong> lets tread deper: What should be done about serious conflicts between developers and/or groups of developers? [00:22]
<AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: we could make an Atom stream from that :) [00:22]
<SteveMcIntyre> going back to an earlier Q: large donations... [00:22]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: the only thing that can be done in case of serious conflicts is "mediation". [00:22]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog: how will the communications/decisions within the board be documented? Is it going to supplant the cabal? [00:22]
<WouterVerhelst> that isn't easy, however, and often fails, as we've seen this year. [00:22]
<don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: what to do when it fails? [00:23]
<SteveMcIntyre> given a very large donation, I'd love to be able to make Debconf bigger and pay for more of the DDs to come along [00:23]
<WouterVerhelst> however, I've done some mediations in a debian context, and many of them were actually successful [00:23]
<SamHocevar> don_armstrong: easy answer I know, but maybe avoid serious conflicts in the first time? :) [00:23]
<RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: I expect most decisions to be made on the public list [00:23]
<WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: try again. if they continue failing, nothing can be done. [00:23]
<don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog: -project? [00:23]
<RaphaelHertzog> the board is not a cabal, it's a team with members from many cabals (ftpmasters, french cabal, RM, ... ;-)) [00:24]
<don_armstrong> 5 mintues [00:24]
<WouterVerhelst> you can't force people to work together; and while expelling one of the parties is always possible, that inherently means you put the blame at one side of the argument [00:24]
<WouterVerhelst> which never is fair [00:24]
<AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: Only when a controversial decision is to be made that can not be reversed later I would do what I can to delay the decision and seek more consultations. However IMHO DPL must be decisive and not ask a committee or the whole project what to do in every case and situation. However he must also be prepared to deal with the fallout of his decisions. [00:24]
<RaphaelHertzog> the board should be a communication backbone for the project :-) [00:24]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: if we get serious conflicts, then we try to mediate [00:24]
<SteveMcIntyre> if that fails altogether, then (as I said earlier) we try to defuse by keeping people apart [00:25]
<don_armstrong> Will users have any capability in the decision taking of Debian or are DD the only one that have this responsability? [00:25]
<RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: nope, not -project, a public list but restriect to the members for posting [00:25]
<SimonRichter> if possible, yes [00:25]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter: how? [00:25]
<WouterVerhelst> SteveMcIntyre: you've done a mediation attempt between Sven and Frans this year, but it failed. Can you name the reasons why they failed, and do you think you could do better if you were to try again? [00:25]
<WouterVerhelst> (if answering that requires you to say things that were said in private, then no need to answer it) [00:25]
<SteveMcIntyre> WouterVerhelst: we tried to mediate, but civil conversation broke down [00:26]
<AigarsMahinovs> It is very common in conflicts that what people really want to achieve is not too controversial and both positions could be met if both agreed to cooperate. [00:26]
<SteveMcIntyre> when the people involved do not even respect the mediatiors, then things are going nowhere [00:26]
<AigarsMahinovs> that is true and little can be done about that [00:26]
<AnthonyTowns> *: do you think "developers" means coders/hackers, or covers other contributions like translating, graphics, etc? what about user support or promotion? [00:26]
<SamHocevar> one serious issue with Sven and Frans was the language; I don't want to minimise the impact of Sven's words, but the translation to English sure helped things escalate [00:27]
<SimonRichter> don_armstrong, giving a formal vote to nonmembers is difficult, but I can see some sort of "informal straw poll" or "request for comment" mails going out where users would get their say, too [00:27]
<don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: how should we get more users involved? [00:27]
<SteveMcIntyre> if trying mediation again in a similar situation, I would make it 100% clear up front that abusing the mediators would immediately terminate the discussion [00:27]
<AnthonyTowns> (I think all of those are "developers", but it seems a lot of people, at least in .au think "developer" excludes those poeple) [00:27]
<WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: I think "Developers" in a Debian context can mean anything that eventually can only be done through uploading some package [00:27]
<WouterVerhelst> so people translating, writing documentation, etc., can all be Developers IMO. [00:28]
<don_armstrong> 2 minutes [00:28]
<AnthonyTowns> WouterVerhelst: (we've had at least one person become a debian developer in order to help maintain mirroring stuff, which isn't uploading packages) [00:28]
<WouterVerhelst> user support is a different matter, [00:28]
<RaphaelHertzog> development is a generic term for growth at least in french, so I have no problem to continue using the term DD to emcompass other profiles [00:28]
<don_armstrong> SimonRichter: how do you think that kind of poll should be implemented? [00:28]
<SamHocevar> I believe in the same definition of a "developer" as WouterVerhelst [00:28]
<SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, I think everyone who is a DD should know basic things like packaging [00:28]
<WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: okay, so I missed infrastructure then :) the point that I have really is that anything that helps Debian forward can be seen as "Developer" [00:28]
<AigarsMahinovs> In my mind developers=maintainers and so far have not had enough reasons to reconsider that. [00:28]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: i don't know. holger's debian-community project, jvw's unofficial forums, and local conferences are good ways, but i expect we could do orders of magnitude better at it [00:29]
<don_armstrong> 1 minute [00:29]
<WouterVerhelst> and while helping users use Debian is valuable, it's not actually the same thing as helping Debian grow. [00:29]
<SamHocevar> if we're trying to create something like the "big players" we cannot do it only with hackers [00:29]
<SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: users of course have some say in how Debian works [00:29]
<SteveMcIntyre> our lists are open by default, and many of our ideas come from users [00:29]
<SteveMcIntyre> and of course that's where we get new DDs too [00:29]
<don_armstrong> ok; thanks everyone [00:30]
<SteveMcIntyre> there's nothing magic about being a DD there [00:30]
<AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: on the other hand, i think having users be contributors -- in whatever way they can, big or small, technical or not -- is even more important both for debian and free software in general [00:30]
<don_armstrong> we're going to stop here and the candidates will have 8 minutes to write a closing statement [00:30]
<SimonRichter> don_armstrong, some web page with buttons, or a special mail alias where opinions would be collected. The former could possibly be attacked, but asks for only a few seconds of everyone's time so it could provide some insight when we are interested in how a certain thing is perceived. [00:30]
-!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-vvvv AnthonyTowns SimonRichter SteveMcIntyre WouterVerhelst] by don_armstrong [00:31]
-!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-vv SamHocevar AigarsMahinovs] by don_armstrong [00:31]
<don_armstrong> while they're doing that, I'd like to first thank the candidates for volunteering to serve as DPL [00:31]
<don_armstrong> all of the candidates this year have presented some interesting ideas, and I hope that even those who are not elected work to get them implemented [00:32]
<don_armstrong> Next, thanks to MJ Ray (slef) and Neil McGovern (Maulkin) for assisting me behind the scenes in collecting questions for the debate [00:32]
<don_armstrong> please feel free to ask the candidates to followup to questions that you identified in the debate on debian-vote@lists.debian.org, esp. if I wasn't able to ask your question [00:33]
<don_armstrong> Finally, thanks to the audience and those who e-mailed me questions for participating; remember to vote when the polls openn [00:34]
-!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-v RaphaelHertzog] by don_armstrong [00:35]
<don_armstrong> The logs from this (and the other channels) will be made available on -vote for your perusal [00:36]
<don_armstrong> The bots will start pasting the closing statements in a few moments [00:39]
<SteveMcIntyre> Thanks to all the candidates, the moderators and all the people [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> posing questions. I hope that we've done a good job of answering [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> those questions. If there is any more clarification needed on [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> some points, please ask us on debian-vote in the next week [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> before voting opens. [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> Thank you in advance to any DDs that may vote for me. I believe [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> I could do a good job as the DPL, as stated in my platform and [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> elsewhere. So could many of the other candidates - it's been [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> great to see that they all want to work for Debian and have lots [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> of ideas on what they could do. [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> . [00:40]
<SteveMcIntyre> Please remember to vote! [00:40]
<AnthonyTowns> Thanks to Don, slef and Maulkin for hosting. I don't have anything to add [00:40]
<AnthonyTowns> to what I've already said -- if you've got other questions, please ask [00:40]
<AnthonyTowns> them on -vote. Thanks for coming and your interest in Debian's future :) [00:40]
<SamHocevar> Well, I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to listen, for organising the debate, and for taking part in it. [00:40]
<SamHocevar> I know that because of my Q4 2006 history of humourous (and sometimes tactless) planet.d.o entries many DDs believe I am this year's joke candidate. I'd like to stress again that I am not, and that I regret hurting the people I hurt. [00:40]
<SamHocevar> I wish luck to everyone in these elections. And if you don't like me as a person, I suggest you have a look at Gustavo Franco's platform! [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> I'd like to thank Don Armstrong for running the DPL debate. Although [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> this type of thing really isn't my cup of tea, I must say he's done a [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> hell of a job. Some people have previously expressed confusion at my [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> lack of detail about what I'll be doing once elected, and I've tried to [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> provide a bit more detail during this debate. I hope that worked out [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> well. [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> . [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> I think it's been interesting to somewhat directly talk to the other [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> contestants about the ideas they had for Debian; in some cases, this has [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> led me to better understand their motives in joining the DPL race, and [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> to better understand what they plan to do. If I'm elected, this will [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> also help me to better decide whom to talk to when the project faces an [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> issue that is close to what one of the other candidates suggested -- [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> which I entirely plan to do. [00:40]
<WouterVerhelst> . [00:41]
<WouterVerhelst> I'd also like to thank the other candidates for running, and the [00:41]
<WouterVerhelst> audience for listening; I regret not being able to stay longer, though [00:41]
<WouterVerhelst> -- it's 1:30 AM over here, and I'm starting to get sleepy; but I'll [00:41]
<WouterVerhelst> happily answer any questions you still might have on the debian-vote [00:41]
<WouterVerhelst> mailinglist. [00:41]
<AigarsMahinovs> Debian is slowly losing its ground and something needs to be done to get more users to Debian in order that more of them would become developers and to get more non-Debian developers come and help us. We need to do something to bring the cool back into Debian. [00:41]
<AigarsMahinovs> If I am elected, I will do all in my power to allow Debian as a project to take a step back, relax and think big on what we as a project what to do in the next 5-10 years. The concepts in my platform are only that, concepts - they can be done and can be very useful for all of us and to the Free [00:41]
<AigarsMahinovs> ..Software movement in general. However even more creative thinking would be needed from the rest of the community to really get us going. [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> First, I'd like to thank everybody who survived 3 hours of intense IRC [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> discussions. ;-) Some difficult questions have been asked, all candidates [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> could respond and we had no flames. We have no magic solutions either. [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> But it's a proof that we can discuss things sanely if we're in a limited [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> set of persons, and given more time I'm sure that we would be able to find [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> out good compromise on important points. [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> important problems that hinder my work and the work of people around me [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> and we'll discuss between reasonable people what we can do about them. [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> We'll find solutions, because despite all the ramblings, we all want the [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> best for Debian. And if you engage a discussion with this in mind, then [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> you're likely to get positive results. [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> . [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> Of course, this needs to a choice of the whole project, and that's why I [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> ask you to vote for me and my board. Why not get 4 DPL candidates (and 4 [00:41]
<RaphaelHertzog> motivated people with complementary goals) for the price of one? :-) [00:41]